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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 06:11 AM EDT

I said I'd dissect SCO's Reply Brief in Support of Its Motion to Dismiss, so, picking up my probe and scalpel with gusto, here goes.

First, it is a cynical document. The overview is that they are asking the judge to either dismiss Red Hat's case or, failing that, either grant them a stay until the IBM case is settled or consolidate the two cases by sending the Red Hat case to Utah. They warn her they will submit a motion requesting that relief, if she fails to grant SCO's Motion to Dismiss. Both a stay and a consolidation would mean Red Hat'd have to wait years for any relief. In short, SCO doesn't want to talk about their proof this exact minute, so they would rather not have their day in court.

Oh, and SCO says the GPL is trying to destroy copyright law. And furthermore, the GPL forbids proprietary ownership, so that means no one can own it. They do know better, but that is what they wrote to Judge Robinson. I guess they hope that she doesn't know any better.

You have two choices wading through their spinach: either laugh or throw up. I leave it up to you. There is a third choice, I suppose, nod off. But when your enemy is talking, I think it's prudent to pay close attention. So, let's hold our noses and dig in, going through the document sequentially.

You might want to review the information on declaratory judgments on this page, beginning at the heading "3.The Declaratory Judgment Act." It will help you follow along, although its focus is patents, and it's harder to get a declaratory judgment in a patent case, and this case isn't about patents, so bear that in mind. Remember this all began with Red Hat filing for a declaratory judgment, followed by SCO's Motion to Dismiss, which Red Hat opposed, and now SCO is replying.

SCO's Reply is divided into three basic arguments:

1. The Court lacks subject matter jurisdiction

2. SCO's conduct does not violate the Lanham Act

3. Red Hat's Lanham Act claims are barred by the First Amendment



The Court Lacks Subject Matter Jurisdiction

This is the section that is the longest. It's the part where they try to convince the judge that there is no actual controversy in the declaratory judgment sense, because they say they didn't threaten to sue Red Hat. If they can get the judge to agree with them on this one point, the declaratory judgment request by Red Hat is dismissed. That's why they spend the most time on this. Also I expect they spent a lot of time on it because it's their weakest area, because they surely sounded like they were going to sue Red Hat to you and to me. Now they must persuade the judge that they never said that and nothing that they said or did meant it either.

They start by complaining about Red Hat using selected quotations that they say are misleading. That's to get the judge to think badly about Red Hat. But the truth is, you have to cut the quotations you use somewhere, so that's just a judgment call. They, however, try to paint it as deliberately done to make points underhandedly. Yawn.

Next, they say that Red Hat lacks a protectable interest in the Linux kernels, the 2.4 and 2.5 kernels at issue, because the GPL "prohibits any proprietary interest and provides that they may be freely copied by anyone."

This silly and false statement is actually a very devilish use of the word "proprietary". When we talk about open source versus proprietary software, we mean that proprietary is the kind where you are not allowed to look at the code. Open source is the kind where you can. Usually, proprietary companies are corporations like SCO or Microsoft. So, when I hear the phrase,"proprietary software", I'm thinking along those lines.

But in the law, proprietary means something else, and they are trying to confuse the two in the judge's mind, or at least in the public's mind, so she'll think Red Hat has no proprietary interest because it's not a proprietary software company. She won't be confused, but I'm guessing they hope the rest of the world will be. Or maybe they are confused themselves.

Here's the legal definition of the word "proprietary" as used in the law, from Steven H. Gifis' "Law Dictionary", 2d Edition:

"Proprietary: owned by a particular person."

First, the GPL does not forbid owning the code. You can't GPL your code unless you do own it. Second, the Linux kernel is copyrighted code, with the GPL license on top, and the GPL does not negate the copyright interest. The kernel has many authors, who each have a copyright in their portion of the kernel, the part they wrote. In turn, there is a collective copyright in the total kernel. Do you have a proprietary interest in code when you own the copyright? Obviously, yes.

And while anyone can download it, that doesn't mean they can do whatever they please with it. There are license terms. License terms means somebody owns the code and lets you use it, subject to the owner's terms.

Second, Red Hat has a copyright interest ownership in the portions of the kernel it wrote, and they have their own distribution, which is "proprietary" in the legal sense, available by subscription and you can also buy it as a product in a box at places like Amazon, or any other distributor, and you can also sign up for various subscription plans and there are different support contracts for most of their products. Does that sound like a commercial enterprise to you? All of their products include the kernel. It's an integral part of what they are selling. Also we should note that the RedHat Enterprise Edition kernel is not a stock kernel.org kernel, but one that has been customized by Red Hat, and this customized kernel is what they offer in all of their product offerings. They also allow you to download some of the software for free, if you know how, but then you are on your own.

So, does the GPL forbid code being owned by a particular person? No. It does not. It requires it. Does Red Hat, as one of the authors of the copyrighted code they wrote and donated to the kernel, have ownership rights over that code? Yes. Does Red Hat, then, using the legal definition, have proprietary rights to the kernel? Yes. You see how devilish this argument is? They are trying to confuse everyone by using a word that has both a legal meaning and a marketplace meaning that essentially are contradictory. You'll see later why.

The way they wrote this part, SCO seems to be trying to argue that proprietary code, in the general business meaning of the word, meaning owned by a company that forbids you to look at the code, is the only kind that can be protected under the law, and the proprietary business model, as opposed to the open source model, the only one the legislators intended to protect. Very crafty. Very wrong, but very crafty.

Next, they argue that there was never a "direct threat" against Red Hat. Their initial argument could be summed up as saying, "We never said the exact words, 'We are going to sue you,' so there was no direct threat." They also state that SCO never directly contacted Red Hat, so that proves they didn't make any direct threats. (However, they seem to have forgotten thisApril interview in which McBride said he did contact Red Hat.) Actually, what it would prove, if true, is that they failed to mitigate their damages, if any. Then they sum up by saying, "So, you see, your honor, there was never a direct threat of litigation."

The law doesn't require a direct threat. Indirect will do. They know that, so SCO goes on to discuss whether the totality of the evidence supports there being a reasonable apprehension of suit from other types of statements and actions that could be viewed as an indirect threat sufficient to justify Red Hat coming to court for relief.

Here, they sound like a battering husband, explaining his wife's screams to the police when they show up at his door. "It's nothing. She's just excitable." Its first specious argument has to do with the statement by McBride that there would be "a day of reckoning" for Red Hat. They downplay that, saying he didn't mean litigation against Red Hat. No, no, nothing of the kind. He meant if SCO won the IBM suit, Red Hat would then have the opportunity to pull out the offending code and voluntarily pay up for any past offenses.

Right. No threat there.

Anyway, the law isn't interested in what he meant, as I understand it. It's interested in what Red Hat thought he meant and what a person of normal intelligence would have understood his words to mean. If someone told me I had hurt them and now I will face a day of reckoning, I'd take it as a threat. Wouldn't you? Some things are just obvious.

Red Hat argued that the 1,500 letters sent to its customers or potential customers constitute a threat, but SCO says they have taken their words in that letter out of context by not quoting them in full. When they said they would vigorously defend their IP rights, they meant by means of the IBM lawsuit, not by suing Red Hat or end users.

Juxtapose that with McBride's statement in Friday's teleconference that SCO leaves open that very possibility, as reported in this news story:

"SCO is in the process of following up on letters sent to 1,500 enterprises this year, advising them that they may be in violation of SCO's intellectual property rights in their use of Linux. 'Our goals is not to go out and start suing companies,' McBride said. 'But, as we go down that path, if we have certain companies out there that are using Linux and we're unable to come to a resolution or reach an impasse, then we absolutely will reserve the option of (taking) the legal path as the remedy to go resolve that.'"

So, which party correctly interpreted the letter? And of course, that isn't an isolated remark. In August, a headline in TheStreet.com called them "Litigious SCO". And for more, just click on our new Quote Database, and you will see a long list.

Even if it were true that the phrase in the letter about a vigorous defense of its IP referred to the IBM lawsuit, the phrase doesn't preclude other actions in addition to the IBM lawsuit. And if that were all SCO meant, why send warning letters to the 1,500 companies at all? See, this is why people hate lawyers. Red Hat argued that threatening its customers was sufficient to qualify as a threat against them. Take a look at this spin SCO's lawyers put on that ball:

"Moreover, the statement in SCO's letter that 'legal liability that may arise from a Linux development process may also rest with the end user,' similarly does not rise to a threat by SCO against Red Hat customers. This observation does nothing more than raise a theoretical question subject to various interpretations and legal arguments. Clearly, this statement does not place a customer in reasonable apprehension of suit, since it does not include an 'unmistakable threat of litigation.'"

Is that what you got out of that letter? That nobody would be sued? They were just having a theoretical legal discussion? And that SCO never intended to frighten folks into buying a license? We here on Groklaw sent them a letter that if they tried to enforce their threats, we'd take legal action. Would we have done that if we didn't believe there was a threat against us, the end user? I have several Red Hat distributions that I paid for, so I'm a Red Hat customer. I took SCO's remarks as a threat.

The license they are offering precisely guarantees they won't sue you if you buy it; if there was no threat to sue, exactly what have they sold those poor saps who signed up? If the answer is nothing, I think fraud might come into the equation, and not just in a theoretical legal discussion, either.

Next, SCO says Red Hat hasn't identified a single customer that SCO has accused of infringement. Well, now, that depends on whether you accept their interpretation of why they sent those 1,500 letters and why they are selling those licenses. Here, SCO is hoping for a TKO.

SCO tries to undermine Red Hat's use of the case Aralac, Inc. v. Hat Corp of Am., 166 F.2d 286, 292-93 (3d Cir. 1948). I can't find a free version of for you. It's an old case, so it's hard to find on the internet, except through paid services like Lexis. I did find a dissenting opinion by one judge, (the dissent wasn't about the case) that mentions this case. I don't think SCO would like the use to which it was put by this judge in his dissenting opinion in Alagrant v. Evergreen Valley Nurseries, LTD.:

"Bearing in mind the remedial character and legislative purpose of the Declaratory Judgment Act, we have repeatedly emphasized that the Act should have a liberal interpretation. Exxon Corp. v. Federal Trade Comm., 588 F.2d 895, 900 (3d Cir. 1978); Simmons Aerocessories v. Elastic Stop Nut Corp. of Am., 257 F.2d 485, 489 (3d Cir. 1958); Aralac, Inc. v. Hat Corp. of Am., 166 F.2d 286, 291 (3d Cir. 1948). Indeed, federal courts's jurisdiction over declaratory judgment actions are limited by just two primary considerations: the action must present a case or controversy and it must be ripe for disposition." [emphasis added]

So this judge believed that the case stands for the proposition that judges shouldn't dismiss declaratory judgments , which is what SCO is asking its judge to do, if they meet the two simple tests he lists, that there is a controversy and that the case can be settled by a declaratory judgment. By that reasoning, SCO would likely lose.

SCO then launches into an argument that because Red Hat doesn't control the kernel, it has no "proprietary interest", and hence there can't be an actual controversy. It does control its own customized version of the kernel. Note how they describe it on their web site:

"All products in the Red Hat Enterprise Linux family are based on a common software core--kernel, libraries, development toolchain, and utilities. This provides a homogeneous environment ideal for simplifying multi-system and desktop-to-datacenter configurations. The immediate benefit: simplified deployment of distributed applications, and a consistent environment for users and system administrators across the entire family. . . . Introduced in September 2003, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, version 3, includes a broad range of new features: .... Based on Linux 2.4.21 kernel: Red Hat Enterprise Linux uses the latest stable Linux kernel with numerous additions from the Linux 2.5/2.6 kernels."

In short, they roll their own, so SCO is all wet here. And, they also have copyrighted code their employees were paid to write and contribute to the kernel, so that also gives them a proprietary interest. They are trying to negate all of this obvious evidence of Red Hat being a company with goods in interstate commerce, a requisite for Lanham Act claim, by saying that they lack a proprietary interest because anyone can dowload the kernel freely over the internet.

What are the odds of a judge agreeing with that novel concept of commercial and copyright law, that you have no ownership interest if you ever allow anyone to have a copy for free? If that were so, then SCO had and has no ownership interest in OpenLinux, because it's still available for download under the GPL license and it has been for years and years. Poof. Copyright gone, ownership interest gone, if we accept SCO's nonsensical argument. And what was Caldera IPO based on, if they had no proprietary interest in their Linux products? If Red Hat has no ownership interest, then neither do they. Do they know all this? What do you think?

If their reasoning were correct, then Microsoft has no proprietary interest in Internet Explorer. You can download that for free over the internet, too. Ah, but it has a EULA, someone may say, so it isn't just a free-for-all. The Linux kernel has a license too, the GPL, and it's not a free-for-all either. There are terms that limit what you can do with it. What, pray tell, is the difference?

For a company that is stating that copyright trumps the GPL, they seem to breezily ignore the copyright interests of kernel contributors, and here they actually have the nerve to argue the exact opposite of what they are arguing in IBM's case. In the IBM case, they say the GPL is trumped by copyright. Here, they argue that the GPL trumps copyright. I don't think they can have it both ways.

Groklaw readers, as usual, have already taken a look at the copyright notices in the kernel and come up with proof of copyrights belonging to Red Hat. There really is something amazingly effective about legal research using the open source method. Here is one example, found by Dr. Stupid:

/* 2 * Adaptec AAC series RAID controller driver 3 * (c) Copyright 2001 Red Hat Inc. 4 * 5 * based on the old aacraid driver that is.. 6 * Adaptec aacraid device driver for Linux. 7 * 8 * Copyright (c) 2000 Adaptec, Inc. (aacraid@adaptec.com:

And agriffin reports his findings:

"The 2.6.0-test7 kernel has several explicit Red Hat, Inc. copyright statements. For example:
[root@minerva src]# rgrep -R '*.c' 'Copyright' ./linux-2.6.0-test7/ | grep 'Red Hat, Inc.' | wc -l 76
[root@minerva src]# rgrep -R '*.h' 'Copyright' ./linux-2.6.0-test7/ | grep 'Red Hat, Inc.' | wc -l 37

"There are 76 c source code files that contain a Red Hat, Inc. copyright assertion and 37 header files. There are, in fact, more Red Hat, Inc. copyrighted files that just use the '(C)' notation."

An anonymous Grokker adds this contribution:

# find linux-2.4.20-8/ -name '*.c' | xargs grep -l 'Copyright' | xargs grep 'Red Hat, Inc.' | wc -l 83
# find linux-2.4.20-8/ -name '*.h' | xargs grep -l 'Copyright' | xargs grep 'Red Hat, Inc.' | wc -l 37

"There's a couple duplicates from my commands (places where the copyright message gets printk'ed or MODULE_AUTHOR'ed as well as being included in the file) but you get the gist of it. Of course, SCO's attempt to paint the kernel as 'a process with which plaintiff has had no connection' would be ludicrous even if Red Hat just redistributed Linux without developing it themselves.

"SCO is also expressing the er... interesting... theory that because the Linux kernel is freely redistributable, they can say whatever they want about it because Red Hat doesn't have a 'sufficient economic interest' to defend it. I suppose this is a reasonable mistake on Caldera's part, but they should check out Red Hat's quarterly reports and disabuse themselves of the notion that just because they couldn't make money distributing Linux, nobody else can either."

Next, they attack a Red Hat case that they offered to prove that an implied threat is enough to establish an actual controversy. SCO tries to distinguish the current facts by saying that in that case, letters were sent with the implied threat, and SCO never sent any letters (um, how about 1,500 of them?) so therefore the case doesn't apply, as if the only way to convey an implied threat is by letter. It also tries to hide behind the argument that they never set a deadline for Red Hat or its customers, so that means there was no threat. Puh-lease. As if I could say, "I'm going to kill you," and it carries no legal weight as a threat unless I tell you when, what you must do to avoid it, and when the cutoff date is to get it done.

Next, SCO repeats a case it used in its original Motion to Dismiss, so that means they may be having trouble coming up with any new ones. Not a good sign for SCO. They say that they have never made any express charges of infringement against Red Hat. I'm guessing that they crossed their fingers behind their backs when they wrote that. Anyway, this is all hot air, because the issue under the law isn't was there a threat; the issue is, is there a controversy? Deciding if there is a controversy is a case-by-case matter, and it depends on the totality of the facts, not on certain words or actions.

Red Hat pointed out that the license itself is a threat. Not so, says SCO, and they argue, and yes, now I am starting to laugh, that they found cases where offering a license on a patent doesn't constitute a threat, like their offering their license, which specifically protects buyers from a lawsuit by them, wasn't a threat to sue anybody. And remember that part about it being harder to get a declaratory judgment in a patent case?

Litigators are a breed apart. Not all lawyers have the stomach to be a litigator, and you can see why, reading this. Imagine having to say things like this for a living. Not that any lawyer actually has to. SCO just has a knack.

Next, they use a case, Bonterra America v. Bestmann, 907 F.Supp . 4 (DDC 1995) and say it stands for the proposition that "the fact that a customer curtailed relationship with plaintiff to avoid any possible risk of suit for infringement does not serve to create in plaintiff a reasonable fear that defendant would sue plaintiff for infringement", as if that is all that happened in the current case. Again, this is a rehash, using the same case they put in their Motion to Dismiss. They must be hoping this judge can't think clearly. Or has short term memory issues. It's not good to repeat yourself like this. They spent three paragraphs on this case in their Motion to Dismiss. She will remember that. I even remembered.

Incidentally, when you see ungrammatical sentences like that in a legal document, it often means the lawyer was working too fast and just copied the header info on the case. If you use Lexis, for example, at the top of the page, they'll list headers, in abbreviated sentences, telling you what the case is supposed to prove. It's an aid to researchers. But you're not really supposed to quote the header. You're supposed to actually read the case to see if it fits your facts.

Then, SCO tries to beat back the impact of another Red Hat case, Treemond Co. v. Schering Corp., 122 F.2d 702. By the way, why do they respond to all these cases? They have to or they're sunk. Red Hat found some very strong cases. But significantly, after quoting from Treemond, SCO fails to answer it meaningfully. It's a big hole in their argument. All they say is that their threatening language wasn't as threatening as the language used in Treemond. That's a judgment call, not a strong legal argument, so it's up to the judge to agree or not. They didn't offer any cases to counter it, which is what you normally would want to do. I'm sure they looked for some.

Here is how Red Hat used the Treemond case:

"In addition to the allegations that SCO addresses in its motion, Red Hat alleges a second set of facts that independently establish an actual controversy between Red Hat and SCO: SCO has sought to coerce Red Hat's customers into paying for a license with SCO to use Red Hat LINUX. Further, Red Hat has alleged that while explaining its licensing program at its recent conference call on July 21, 2003, SCO specifically stated that it anticipated such a disruption (Complaint 61.) The Complaint quotes the transcript from the SCO's conference call: 'And so I'm guessing that those end users are going to be looking around to the vendor or vendors involved in supplying [LINUX software] to them whether it's Red Hat or IBM and saying, "What's up, guys? You know what's happening here?" But, you know, that is going to be their beef with their particular vendor.' (Id.)

"The Third Circuit has found that such public statements aimed at the plaintiff's customers establish an actual controversy. Treemond Co . v. Schering Corp., 122 F.2d 702, 705 (3d Cir. 1941) (reversing dismissal of complaint for declaratory judgment of patent invalidity and noninfringement based on finding that defendant's notice in trade journal threatened purchasers with suits if they purchased plaintiff's product). SCO's motion must be denied on this basis as well."

SCO needed to effectively counter this case that supports Red Hat's claim that SCO's public statements and the licensing program are sufficient to establish an actual controversy. In my opinion, SCO failed.

Next, their argument is that even if the judge doesn't agree with them that Red Hat had no reasonable apprehension of litigation justifying their declaratory judgment action, the judge still should dismiss it. Here's why they say she should do that: because the IBM case, they say, will settle "most, if not all" of the issues raised by Red Hat anyway. Most? They seriously think she will say most is enough? The other problem with this argument is that it won't. But they argue that Red Hat, in effect, should wait its turn. First, let the courts decide if there is any infringing code. If the courts say there isn't, then Red Hat could bring the action.

That is an odd argument to advance in a declaratory judgment case. First, by that time, Red Hat's business could be so badly disrupted by SCO's shenanigans that there'd be no way to be made whole. They are, after all, already offering the license, despite not having proven a thing in any court of law, or anywhere else. The chief purpose of a declaratory judgment action is to force the other side to court, to get a decision, so a threatening party can't make threats and never actually bring a lawsuit and just destroy your business that way, without you being able to do anything about it. Here, SCO is arguing that the judge should let it do what the Declaratory Judgment Act was written to prevent. Note this from the earlier linked page explaining the Act:

"Outside of the patent field, declaratory judgment actions can be used to prevent tortious acts -- before they occur -- by allowing any interested party to obtain a declaration of the respective rights and legal relations of the disputing party where an actual controversy exists. The object of a declaratory judgment is to avoid the accrual of damages by seeking a court's determination of the rights of parties."

Duh. In effect, they are asking the judge to let Red Hat's damages build and build for a couple of years. Red Hat is asking that SCO be made to stop saying misleading things about its products, and SCO says there's no need to setttle this until 2005, and meanwhile they will keep on talking and offering those licenses, despite not having proven any of their IP claims in any court of law or anywhere else. And if the IBM case is won by IBM, Red Hat would hardly need to bring a declaratory judgment action then, would it?

Something else strikes my eye. They repeatedly state that the argument is over the 2.4 and 2.5 kernels. But in the teleconference they claimed that their IP is in the 2.6 kernel too, so the IBM case isn't going to settle all the issues, because it isn't even discussing the 2.6 kernel.

And it doesn't settle the specific question Red Hat is asking them to settle: Red Hat is asking the judge to declare that Red Hat is not infringing SCO's copyright. How could the IBM case settle that? Correct, it can't.

SCO's problem is it looks at all issues only from their own standpoint. It's to their benefit to make Red Hat wait, and so they argue it should happen. Then they reach and stretch and twist the law around to try to make it fit. That isn't so rare, but I've never seen such an ill fit as this. Red Hat is alleging that SCO is hurting their reputation and their business. Solving the copyright issue one way or another does not address the trade libel, misleading advertising, and other tort issues it has raised. If Red Hat wins on those issues, it will collect money damages. But if IBM wins, no money damages will go to Red Hat. It has to establish its own torts, so SCO's pretense that they should just let the IBM matter go first ignores the damage Red Hat is claiming. Of course, that is probably because they don't care a bit if they are hurting Red Hat's business, because their purpose is to slow or stop Linux adoption, judging by their behavior. In fact, they have a new program to encourage people to migrate away from Linux. They are saying to the judge: please let us continue to really hurt Linux adoption for another couple of years by making Red Hat wait. It's a breathtaking request, and I can't see why a judge would grant it, and I've tried hard to think of any conceivable reason why she would.

Then, bully fashion, SCO tells the judge that if the court does not dismiss for lack of jurisdiction and does not dismiss by exercising its discretion (the two arguments SCO has so far advanced), it should either stay the Red Hat action until the IBM case is finished or "transfer it to Utah where the previously-filed IBM action is currently being prosecuted." Now I am laughing out loud. Looking for a little home town advantage, eh? Like the judge is going to do that. Both SCO and Red Hat are Delware corporations. Red Hat's home town advantage venue, though, would be North Carolina, where it is located physically. So Delaware is kind of neutral territory, and the judge isn't likely to send the case to another state where one of the parties will have an advantage. I just can't see that happening, barring other factors I don't know or have somehow missed. I think SCO knows she isn't likely to grant that request, so it adds a threat:

"Indeed, if this Court does not dismiss this action, SCO intends to file a motion to stay and/or transfer to Utah."

Judges love to be threatened. They teach a course in how to do that in law school. That's how effective that technique is. Not. It seems that what SCO wants is a time delay, by hook or by crook. If they can't get it from the judge one way, they'll get it another way. I don't think judges like to be told what to do Or Else. They are hoping, perhaps, the judge will find them so aggravating to deal with, she'll just send them to Utah to get some peace. I know I'd like to send them someplace to get some peace. But she has other options. Judges have a lot of options, particularly in fashioning declaratory judgment relief.

SCO's conduct doesn't violate the Lanham Act

Section II begins the section in which SCO tries to tell the judge that they did not violate the Lanham Act. It sets forth the five elements that Red Hat must meet to establish a Lanham Act claim, a) a false or misleading statement about its product or another's product; b) deception or a tendency to deceive a considerable portion of the relevant consumers; c) significant deception likely to influence purchasing decisions; d) that the goods advertised are in interstate commerce; and e) a likelihood the plaintiff will be injured. So far, so good.

Then, SCO trots out the argument that Red Hat has no product, because it has no proprietary interest or ownership in Linux 2.4 and 2.5 kernels and that "indeed no one has such an interest". Well, now, why do they say that? Because they claim no one purchases the kernel because, they say, it's "free". I don't believe they are saying this out of confusion over is it free as in speech or free as in beer. They are saying it because unless you have goods in interstate commerce, you can't bring a Lanham Act claim. You can read about that here.

Standing for a claim of false advertising, which is what Red Hat has accused SCO of, "requires plaintiff to be a competitor," they say, and because the kernel is freely distributed, Red Hat can't allege any ownership interest. My, how they struggle with the GPL.

I can't see any judge buying such an argument, because it isn't factually true. Even if the judge did buy it, on appeal she would be reversed. True facts are what judges are looking for, most particularly. This section simply beats all for knock-down, drag-out gall. The funny part is, I bet they congratulated themselves when they thought it up.

I think when this is all over, I might write a book about this case, and the theme, beyond just telling the SCO saga and Groklaw's story, will be how the GPL tripped up some of the best lawyers on the planet and made them fall down and go boom.

This must mean they have absolutely no one on their side who is a GNU/Linux person, or he or she would have explained the GPL to them before this document was submitted. Do you realize how many wins we have had already, just from SCO's absolute incapacity or unwillingness to understand the GPL? The only hope they have, and it's a long shot, is that the judge suffers from a similar incapacity.

But is it really an authentic inability to comprehend it? Let's look at the evidence. First, they are lawyers. They read licenses for a living. Caldera released its products under the GPL for years. No, let me correct that. They *sold* their products for years, released under the GPL. So do they know that GPL code can be sold? And that a company can have a copyright interest in GPL code? Obviously, they do. They contributed code to the kernel themselves. Canopy's Ralph Yarro just did an interview in which he stated that many of the companies in the Canopy Group are Linux companies. This isn't Greek to them. So do they believe the nonsense they just told the judge?

SCO is protected by the First Amendment

Finally, in section III, we reach the end of their three arguments, that they are protected by the First Amendment and can therefore say all the bad things about Linux they want to. Besides, they say, Delaware lets you say bad things if you are involved in a lawsuit and it's speech in that context. Their line of reasoning goes like this: commercial speech has a lesser protection under the First Amendment, but their speech wasn't altogether commercial. It has some "protected, non-commercial elements". They quote from a case that they themselves say "is not controlling in this instant matter", to which this reader's reaction is, why, then waste my time with it? The reason they quote it is because the judge in the case wrote about there being speech in publications in that case that "clearly contained elements of both" commercial and noncommercial speech. SCO analogizes itself. It didn't make product comparisons denigrating Red Hat's product , they argue, (and since they are claiming Red Hat has no product, it's no wonder they feel free to make that argument), but rather all SCO's statements "involve expressions of its legal rights, granted by copyright and contract law". But fellows, maybe you forgot, the IBM case isn't about copyright infringement. It's a contract case, so anything you said about copyright infringement wouldn't be protected by your participation in that lawsuit. You didn't send IBM one of those 1,500 letters, did you? And if SCO wanted to protect its copyrights, all it has to do is file a copyright infringement action and prove that it has a copyright on some code that is in Linux inappropriately.

Next SCO mentions another case, Riley, which they also acknowledge isn't apposite to the instant case. And indeed reading the quotation about the public need to hear "information and advocacy" about charitable contributions, the subject matter of that case, it's hard not to wonder what are they thinking.

Well, reading on, they explain, with flowery detail, that this case involves public issues of importance. It's not just a commercial dispute between the makers of two products. It's about the noble quest to establish that IP has value and must be protected, and because of that, they should be allowed to say bad things about Linux 'til the cows come home, because the public has an interest in the issue and needs to hear it discussed. Oh. It's a public service they are performing when they attack Linux.

Then they make the single most incredible argument I have ever seen in any case I have ever read in my entire life. It deserves some bold type: They actually argue that the GPL is designed to destroy the economic value of copyrights.

This is beyond wrong. It's Alice in Wonderland, off-with-their-heads talk. They can't be lying here, can they, no matter what the evidence may be for that in other sections, because they'd know then that their argument is laughable? If my attorney offered such an argument on my behalf, I believe I'd report him to the Ethics Committee or sue for malpractice. But no, they aren't kidding. They somberly wrap themselves in a cloak of self-righteousness, like the Man of La Mancha, and seriously argue the point. Their Point of Points.

I had to take a break and just laugh for a while and then come back to this, because it's so incredibly enjoyably, deliciously silly. As one Grokker noted in a comment here the other day, this must be the Attack of the Pointy Headed Bosses (PHBs). In Utah, copyright trumps the GPL, SCO says. In Delaware, the GPL destroys copyrights. No. Not enough. It's designed by evil masterminds to destroy copyright. I'm thinking they may want to rethink their plan to get this case moved to Utah. Somebody might notice they speak with forked tongue.

OK, here's what they say on the holy topic of copyrights: essentially, they accept as true that no one will pay for software that can be freely downloaded. Ipso facto, the GPL is against money for software. Really, that's what they say, only they say it in highfalutin' legalese, with a fervor worthy of Joan of Arc:

"The reason this line of argument is relevant and important in the instant case is that the speech Red Hat complains of is entirely and unequivocally intertwined in SCO's attempts to publish and defend its intellectual property rights, including copyright and contract rights, protected by law in the face of withering pressure by Linux software advocates to make operating system software free and thereby destroy the economic value of software copyrights so highly protected under the U.S. Supreme Court cases cited above. The speech must be protected because it involves critical and timely public issues about legal rights of the type held by SCO. As such, SCO's speech in this case involves an issue of significant importance to our digital society; it is not just an issue between Red Hat and SCO."

I'm not making this up. They really said that. They then sneak into the document, as if it supported how important this subject is to us, the public, the fact that there is a mountain of press about this case, (and it's handy to collect because they have paid their PR company to create it), as if it were a demonstration of the importance of the sacred topic they advance, as opposed to being a combination of paid-for PR results and the public's fascination in watching this company commit suicide-by-judge before our very eyes. It's like a car wreck. You just have to look.

I think I may safely state that none of the hundreds of thousands of readers who visit Groklaw every week do so because they are interested in the question as framed by SCO here, because despite the insignia SCO has sewn onto its banner and held high as they unjustly charge the Linux community, we know that one of the freedoms of the GPL is the right to sell GPL software, yes, sell it... for ...gasp...money. Here is the relevant information from the GPL FAQ page:

" Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money? Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software."

SCO may find it incomprehensible that anyone would pay money for something they can get for free, but I do, for one, because I find it more convenient to buy CDs than to download. So, there you go. I am a witness that they are ... I debate which phrase of Linus Torvalds to insert here. I'll leave it to you. Feel free to be creative and build on his work, in true open source fashion. (Just check for copyrights first, you pirates. And prior art. And none of that "don't ask, don't tell" use of other peoples' methods and ideas, either. What? No ideas left? Then stop being creative. There are more important things in the world than progress. Like money, for instance.)

How are copyrights going to be protected in a digital age, SCO calls out to the judge full-throated, if SCO can't speak out? Listen, guys, you can calm down. Nobody wants your worn-out UNIX code. We've told you from day one: if you can show us any infringing code, we'll take it out that very day. We don't want it. Problem solved. There is, therefore, no need for your quest, you phonies. And the GPL, in fact, relies upon copyright. You could say it is built on it. That's how much it isn't attacking copyrights.

Your Impossible Dream has nothing to do with protecting your copyrights, we don't believe. What we think you want is to steal *our* copyrighted code and get the masses so worked up with hypocritical arguments in the media that they will let you do it, so you can make out like bandits from code you didn't write and have no "proprietary interest" in. We also believe you may have already stolen our code and are terrified we'll find out you have taken our copyrighted, GPL work and put it in your proprietary, hidden software code. If you've done that, you would need to destroy the GPL before anyone finds out and makes you either take out the code or GPL your own software.

So, recovering my composure, that is their argument. They should be allowed to badmouth Linux because it's a newsworthy topic of "public importance that cannot be overstated." I think I'll lose my composure again for one little minute, long enough to say this: people died for the First Amendment. The founding fathers of America believed in the values expressed in the Constitution deeply enough to give their lives to make it a reality. To see SCO debase the First Amendment by using it try to shield their weasel behinds from the legal consequences of their low-down, mean-spirited, unprovoked, dishonest attacks on the GNU/Linux community is a kind of, well, a kind of secular blasphemy. Yes. No less.

They are telling the judge and the whole world a lie: that the GPL is attacking their copyrights. They want the judge to allow them to tell this lie, because lots of news clippings show people are interested in hearing what they have to say. How noble. How inspiring. How rotten to the core. They know, because we have told them, in public and in private, that we don't want their copyrighted code.

What they are not telling the judge is an ugly truth: they can't compete with GNU/Linux software and they want to use the law to prop up their dying business. What a quest. The right to use lies in the media and the law to destroy your competition instead of competing in the marketplace fair and square. I guess the scripture is true: some people really do worship money. SCO is all worked up about losing money because a better product than theirs has come along that people prefer. How dare the community come up with a better mousetrap? And a product they can't steal or coopt? That is their real beef, but they don't dare to say it that plainly.

Happily, we're done, because my lip is curling so much, I might tip my chair over.

There is also a letter attached, from Mark Heise, one of the SCO attorneys in the IBM case, offering to testify as a witness in the Red Hat case about two things: the letter SCO sent Red Hat after Red Hat apparently asked SCO to sign a stipulation that it would not sue them or Red Hat's customers, and SCO refused. He's willing to testify about that settlement letter. That indicates to me that SCO is plenty worried about how those discussions went leading to that letter and they feel they must tell their side of the story, because the letter doesn't look so good. Then he offers to testify about the GPL. The GPL? Now that I'd pay money to see. Mark Heise an expert witness on the GPL. He's such an expert, he attaches the GPL itself, which so far from attacking copyright law says this about how the GPL protects your rights:

"We protect your rights with two steps: (1) copyright the software, and (2) offer you this license which gives you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify the software."

Yes, that is what it says. The first step is to copyright the software. That's what the GPL is built on, you befuddled and/or hypocritical SCOfolk, on copyright law. Later, in the GPL exhibit, it adds:

". . . each file should have at least the 'copyright' line and a pointer to where the full notice is found."

Then it gives an example:

"one line to give the program's name and an idea of what it does. Copyright yyyy name of author"

I hope this judge reads exhibits. If she does, she surely will not miss that, even if SCO's "GPL Expert" Heise did.

Do they think they can fool the judge with this argument? Unless she is a lot stupider than I am, I'd say that is unlikely. And by the way, Judge Robinson is far from stupid.

I have to say that predicting court cases is risky business. And it's certainly true that judges do try to consolidate two cases for the sake of judicial economy. But if the judge grants SCO's Motion to Dismiss or sends this case to Utah or grants a stay, I'll be more than surprised.

But I don't expect that to happen. For one thing, SCO didn't ask for the judge to send them to Utah or for a stay until after Red Hat had already responded. Now it throws in the idea, but not by means of a motion, and as a result Red Hat has no opportunity to respond. The odds of SCO getting a yes on either request on this document seem extremely slim, therefore. Unfortunately, SCO has already told us that they won't take no for an answer and will file yet another motion as soon as this one is denied, if it is. I don't know how long it'll take for the judge to get sick of SCO's delaying tactics or to recognize them for what they are or even if she will. But she should. I hope it won't take long and that she'll give them short shrift, but there are no guarantees in a courtroom. I do have an opinion, however, on the merits of this document. I was decidedly underwhelmed. And I hope Judge Robinson feels the same. We should know in about a month.


  


SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court | 346 comments | Create New Account
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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Steve Martin on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 08:20 AM EDT

One minor point that's another hole in their First Amendment argument: they claim

It didn't make product comparisons denigrating Red Hat's product , they argue, ... but rather all SCO's statements "involve expressions of its legal rights, granted by copyright and contract law".
but these "legal rights" have yet to be determined in the IBM case (specifically their rights over allegedly infringing code in the Linux kernel) and therefore may not be used as a defense in this case.

Or did I miss something?

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Steve Martin on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 08:21 AM EDT
P.J., the link to declaratory judgment discussion is 404.

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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court - blacklight
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 08:47 AM EDT
The SCO Group needs to comes up with an argumentation that is sound on the
facts, the law and the facts that are relevant to the law.

I have a timetable for the SCO Group:

(1) The SCO Group has 30 days to stew in its juices until I predict that Judge
Robinson decides to give RH the declaratory judgment RH seeks. My layman's
interpretation of the Lantham Act is that if the Lantham Act does not contravene
the First Amendment - and it doesn't, then the Lantham Act applies full force.


(2) After that first defeat, the SCO Group needs to fully apply its energies to
be defeated in both its IBM suit and the IBM countersuit.

The SCO group was a loser before it got the $50 million, and it is still a loser
after it got the $50 million.

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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 08:48 AM EDT
Does this mean that TSG lawyers are not competent to discuss the copyright
issues in this case, or that TSG is struggling to make up a valid case? Or
something even more bizarre?

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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: J.F. on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 08:52 AM EDT

I was wondering where all the Big Tobacco Company lawyers went! Cigarettes are not addictive! Cigarettes don't cause cancer! My clients never tried to market to children! The fact that they can say the things in their response with a straight face proves they are one and the same.

Judges love to be threatened. They teach a course in how to do that in law school. That's how effective that technique is. Not. It seems that what SCO wants is a time delay, by hook or by crook. If they can't get it from the judge one way, they'll get it another way. I don't think judges like to be told what to do Or Else. They are hoping, perhaps, the judge will find them so aggravating to deal with, she'll just send them to Utah to get some peace. I know I'd like to send them someplace to get some peace. But she has other options. Judges have a lot of options, particularly in fashioning declaratory judgment relief.

I hope the judge comes into court boiling over this. Nothing helps one side more than to have the judge royally pissed off at the other side.

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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: gumout on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 08:57 AM EDT
--- SCO pulls a Bait and Switch ---

This is a blatant, dishonest attempt to deceive the Court concerning Red
Hat's Memorandum by switching factual speakers and quotes.

Here's the original quote by Darl McBride to which Red Hat's Memorandum
referred concerning "there will be a day of reckoning... when this is
done".

http://www.crn.com/sections/BreakingNews/dailyarchives.asp?Artic leID=4148

CRN: Have you talked to Red Hat?

McBride: Yes. We approached Red Hat [about licensing source code libraries]
and they thought [our claim] was interesting. They said they'd talk about it,
but then called back and said we'll pass [on licensing the source code from
SCO]. [Red Hat Chairman and CEO Matthew] Szulik said copyright issues scare
him. But Red Hat has had a free ride. In its IPO filings, one of the warnings
to investors stated clearly that Red Hat may be violating IP and one day they
may have to step up and pay royalties. Why not? Every time I ship a copy of my
operating system, I pay royalties to Novell and Veritas. There will be a day
of reckoning for Red Hat and SuSE when this is done. But we're focused on the
IBM situation.


SCO's Reply Brief cites commentary by Chris Sontag in Mozillaquest concerning
the "day of
reckoning" comment uttered by McBride.

http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux03/ScoSource-10_Story0 2.html

Chris Sontag: What [he] meant was that if SCO prevails in their lawsuit with
IBM, companies like Red Hat and SuSE may need to revisit their distributions
and remove any UNIX system code from their distributions and compensate SCO in
some way for the software code that they benefited from by using our UNIX
code.

The comment by Darl McBride "There will be a day of reckoning for Red
Hat... " quoted by CRN
is a not so sublte threat or I'll eat my physics degree.

---
Sir, ( a + bn )/n = x , hence God exists; reply!

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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Mark_Edwards on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 09:10 AM EDT
excellent work PJ !!!

Mark.

PS. Write the book !!!

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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Mark_Edwards on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 09:29 AM EDT
"Reading SCOSpeak over the past few months has made me feel angry
and sick to my stomach at times, especially when I see the depths that
human beings (they are human beings aren't they?) will go to in order
to finagle, obfuscate and even outright lie.

This site, and in particular PJ's dissection of the SCOSpeak, is keeping
me sane."

I couldn't agree more....

Mark.

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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Hygrocybe on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 09:39 AM EDT
Very well done PJ - I remain constantly amazed and rather humbled by your
incredible efforts to keep this site running so up to date and smoothly -
together with your very well constructed and penetrating analyses. I'll bet
RedHat already has downloaded a copy of this one.

---
LamingtonNP

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A book! A book!
Authored by: Nick on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 10:15 AM EDT
" I think when this is all over, I might write a book about this case, and the theme, beyond just telling the SCO saga and Groklaw's story, will be how the GPL tripped up some of the best lawyers on the planet and made them fall down and go boom. "

Yes, please, I would very much like to read this landmark defense of the GPL in permanent book form. It would go in a place of honor on my bookshelf. Anyone know a book publisher that would be interested? Or a book agent that deals with business and/or technology books? This is a dynamite story, and PJ is the one to tell it having covered every nook and cranny from day one.

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT: Another Clueless Journalist
Authored by: Steve Martin on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 10:19 AM EDT

Looks like a journalist over at the New Jersey Star-Ledger needs education (or maybe a LART). (Warning: Geeklog "extra space" syndrome in the "LART" link...)

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OT - Analysts credibility
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 10:24 AM EDT
I tried to post yesterday this report on analyst credibility but I couldn't get the URL right. So here it is again. Thanks to p0ssum for pointing me to tinyurl.com. Nice tool.

The report contains a chart of analysts policies regarding research funded by sponsors.

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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Tim Ransom on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 10:28 AM EDT
Not to mention the fact that their company bought the Flintstone era code this whole fiasco is based on with money made from an open source, GPL licensed Linux IPO! I can safely assume then that their IPO was a massive fraud, according to their own logic.
Thanks again

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SCO never contacted Red Hat?
Authored by: ZeusLegion on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 10:38 AM EDT
Maybe I'm missing something but didn't McBribe himself say he had talked to Matt Szulik at Red Hat and discussed the Protection License via phone and letter?

Why yes, yes he did:

Darl McBride in a letter to Red Hat CEO Matthew Szulik, Aug. 4 2003 (bold emphasis mine):

"Attached is the letter I discussed with you during our July 31, 2003 telephone conversation. Instead of actually sending the letter, I thought it was best to telephone you and speak in person to see if we could resolve the issues between our companies short of litigation. We left the conversation with a preliminary agreement to meet and continue our discussions further."

---
Z

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GPL'ed code IS proprietary
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 10:39 AM EDT
PJ essentially came to the conclusion that GPL'ed code is proprietary in a certain sense.

Here is another twist on the GPL. He calls it hypocritical. Maybe there is a small grain of truth in there somewhere with respect to the use of the term 'proprietary'.

But the GPL's restrictions on copying are certainly deliberate. GPL'ed code is NOT public domain, as many people think (although probably not on Grocklaw). It is copyrighted and 'owned' by a specific party and that party can even make (future releases of) that code non-GPL'ed. (Of course, the GPL'ed code cannot be directly un-GPLed once it has been released.)

The GPL is based on copyright law. Its whole point is to ensure that it will not be appropriated by third-parties who do not wish to contibute their changes and enhancements back to the community. And this is done through controlling copying of the code via a license, in exactly the same way as for commercial source code.

Maybe its time for new terminology which distinguishes between open source code which /can/ be freely re-distributed versus open sourse code which /must/ remain freely redistributable.

Or maybe 'GPL' is simply the best way to say it. But I agree that calling it non-proprietary is confusing. GPL *IS* proprietary code and you better darn well plan on following the license if you plan on using (and releasing) it!

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Suing Redhat
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 10:46 AM EDT
I thought SCO was planning on suing Redhat's /customers/, and this would
therefore have a chilling effect on Redhat's business. Why is SCO spending so
much time denying that it wasn't going to sue /RedHat/?

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Typo?
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 10:54 AM EDT
I think this sentence

If someone told me I'd hurt them and now I'd face a day of reckoning, ...

works better without the contractions (or at least different contractions):

If someone told me I had hurt them and now I will face a day of reckoning, ...

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Typo? - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:57 AM EDT
    • Typo? - Authored by: Maserati on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 12:12 PM EDT
      • Typo? - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 03:20 PM EDT
  • Typo? - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 12:54 PM EDT
    • Typo? - Authored by: jmc on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 01:30 PM EDT
    • Typo? - Authored by: PJ on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:48 PM EDT
SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:11 AM EDT
It would appear that IBM could use SCO's logic to say that they breeched no
contracts because they did not copy code to another product. Since SCO says
Linux is not a product. Of course SCO knows this is hogwash and so do their
lawyers. They are playing with the gambit that they can say the GPL is not legal
and therefore they do not have to abide by it.

I was once told by a state attorney that by signing a contract you were
admitting that it was valid and that you would abide by what was written
therein. If that is true then the fact that others have excepted the GPL and are
abiding by it makes it valid. I'm probably way out on a limb here, but I'd be
interested in seeing an article here that explains the facts about this concept.
I also think it would be well worth Groklaw putting up what is and isn't valid
under the GPL, since I've seen so many articles saying what you can and can't
do under the GPL. For instance, the Cisco/Linksys deal where they have embedded
Linux in a route. Why must they present code when Lindows, Lycoris and Suse
don't allow downloads of their most recent code/distributions.

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Dumb question
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:19 AM EDT
<i><blockquote>Red Hat has no product, because it has no proprietary
interest or ownership in Linux 2.4 and 2.5 kernels and that "indeed no one
has such an interest"</blockquote></i>

<p>If no one can have a "proprietary interest" in the Linux
kernel, then how can SCO presume to charge license fees over it?

<p>I guess I should stop trying to make sense of SCO's arguments.
Hopefully the judge notices SCO's hypocrisy and deception.

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Point of concession
Authored by: gumout on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:21 AM EDT
PJ,
We need to note that SCO was correct in asserting that the Court has
discreation to consider evidence
concerning subject matter jurisdiction that is outside the claims stated in the
pleadings.

We need a copy of the local District Court Rules on how many Answer-Reply
Brief or (Oral Arguments)
cycles the Court will hear before ruling on Motions.


---
Sir, ( a + bn )/n = x , hence God exists; reply!

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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:28 AM EDT
Does SCO's third argument tend to undermine their first argument?

Let's see if I understand this. In SCO's first argument they are claiming that
no controversy exists. In their third argument they point to all the press
coverage and claim that there are huge issues involved. Is that not a
controversy?

Did I miss something here?

Mark

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SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Tim Ransom on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:31 AM EDT
Had the folks at SCO used this tool while writing their PR or fashioning their legal documents, then we would have nothing to discuss here!
I intend to utilize the new quote db (amazing! Thanks LHJ) to test this.
Thanks again,

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:34 AM EDT
Great write PJ (one of your top ten, so far)!

RE: "But they argue that Red Hat, in effect, should wait its turn. First,
let the courts decide if there is any infringing code. If the courts say there
isn't, then Red Hat could bring the action".

So - given this logic,
...that Red Hat should wait for IBM case to be over (to see if there is
infringing code), BEFORE Red Hat can seek to collect from SCO (a bit one sided
because SCO is trying to collect from Red Hat's users before the IBM,
infringing code related case, is over)
then, given this SCO logic,
...to be fair to SCO's own logic here, shouldn't SCO also wait for the IBM SCO
case to be over before SCO attempts to collect anything from any LINUX users (as
the infringing code will not be proven, says SCO here, until the IBM case is
over)?

SCO has a wonderfully large FORKED tongue (in cheek)!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Provoke reversible error?
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 12:35 PM EDT


PJ:

Is it sanctionable conduct to try to provoke a judge into reversible error?

That seems to be what SCO is trying to do. That seemed to be Microsoft's
strategy, too, in hindsight.


Stuart Thayer

[ Reply to This | # ]

Got Copyright? DEFEND it the legal way!
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 12:41 PM EDT
"SCO's attempts to publish and defend its intellectual property rights,
including copyright "

All SCO has to do to defend its copyright is to file a lawsuit claiming
infringement under USC-17, and prove that it had a copyright on some code and
that there is code in Linux that has no legal parent to account for the
similarities ... and that's the ONLY way the US recognizes.

But they keep whining about defending it instead of actually doing it.

[ Reply to This | # ]

If you do write a book ...
Authored by: beast on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 12:48 PM EDT

"I think when this is all over, I might write a book about this case, and the theme, beyond just telling the SCO saga and Groklaw's story, will be how the GPL tripped up some of the best lawyers on the planet and made them fall down and go boom."

This phrase should be the subtitle, or at least a chapter title. :^)

LOL

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GPL is a destroyer of economic value
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 12:54 PM EDT

SCO is just repeating some well known Microsoft FUD here.

It is clear that open source is commoditising software. I have a sense that Microsoft wants to scare other software vendors and bring them on their side. The innuendo is if software developpers support the GPL, then they will no longer be able to get a high profit margin selling software. On the other hand Microsoft do not want to be too explicit because they don't want to openly advertise to customers that open source is cheaper. Their solution is the clumsy "GPL is a destroyer of value" argument. Software vendors are scared and customers can't make sense of it.

Maybe it is time to revisit ESR's classic essay The Magic Cauldron. He explains software has two economic values: a sale value and a usage value. The open source business model collapse the sale value of software but the usage value remain the same. The business model of software vendors become obsolete and customers benefit from the change. Microsoft sees the danger and is fighting to protect its business model.

Do we see an attempt to turn this Microsoft FUD into a legal argument here? It would be like the dinosaurs succesfully suing the mammals out of existence. SCO might be executing an unwritten clause of their Microsoft deal. They may be testing legal arguments in a rather useless motion to test the judge reaction and see where the hurdles are. How does the argument fare when looked under this angle? Maybe we will see improved version of the argument in the future. Or maybe they will conclude it is just hopeless and move on to something else.

This strain of thought makes me believe they know the GPL is rock solid, or at least Microsoft knows. If it were not, they would just ignore it and steal the code. But the GPL is solid, so they have to try to find some convoluted legal way to kill it first.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 01:00 PM EDT
AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Darl McBride and SCO are the most foul creatures on earth.

Just had to get that out.

[ Reply to This | # ]

an interview with Mark Heise
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 01:11 PM EDT
Click here to read CNET News.com's August, 2003 interview with Mark Heise. This interview provides more insight into the latest filing by SCO.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Some more Darl quotes
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 01:33 PM EDT
Check this article here.

http://tinyurl.com/ri1u

Interessing tidbit:

"We said we wanted to give customers a chance to step up and work with us," McBride said Friday. "We're getting good feedback and a pipeline that's healthy." However, the company hasn't ruled out proactively invoicing Linux users in the future if its licensing program stalls.

[ Reply to This | # ]

speaking out of both sides of the mouth.
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 02:21 PM EDT
"I didn't do it! No one saw me! You can't prove it!" - Bart
Simpson

The above quotation seems strangely appropos to the TSG argument as presented.
What is so grinding about the entire business is that the TSG argument in court
so directly contradicts the public statements. The first thing this legal
layman saw was that TSG could not make any defense of their supposed
"intellectual property" because to do so would seem to support the
fact that there is a controversey. So to make it seem that there is no
controversey they are reduced to attempting to belittle the value of the linux
kernel to Red Hat (and indirectly to themselves).

I realize that courts operate independently from one another, and yet I have to
question if the legal filings of TSG in once case could be used in another case
(say, the IBM case) against them. That kernel is eigher worth billions of
dollars, or it is not. It cannot be arbitrarily priceless in one instance and
worthless in another instance, simultaneously. This does not logically follow.

[ Reply to This | # ]

100 Years Ago: The Selden Patent
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 02:43 PM EDT
Is the Selden Patent vs. Henry Ford case a history lesson for today? What do you think?

"Suing Your Customers: A Winning Business Strategy?"

Stuart Thayer

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 02:50 PM EDT
I just had the following thought: The most obvious and simple way for SCO (or
any defendent in a case like this) to avoid a declaratory judgement, is to say
"But there is no controversy, because we agree with them totally!".
But SCO is making up excuses, diversions and denials, and goes to great lengths
to avoid saying anything of the sort. That alone should make bells ring with a
judge, don't you think?

[ Reply to This | # ]

No new copyright issues here?
Authored by: geoff lane on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 03:09 PM EDT

One must not think that the copyright issues raised in the RedHat-SCO case are unusual in any way. In the publishing world there are many examples of products compiled from multiple parts with licenses that add conditions to the basic copyrights awarded by law.

The obvious relevant example is the "free" newspaper. Of course the newspaper is supported by advertising but it is zero cost to the reader and may be futher distributed (after I'm finished with it I can leave it for someone else to read.) Yet every word in the free newspaper is covered either by copyright (the articles and adverts) or trademark (the title.) However, most of the articles will have been obtained from news agencies and will be used under licenses that extend simple copyright. Some of the content may be reader letters, freely contributed with the intent that they be included in the final product.

The only difference is the intent of the licenses. In the case of agency copy, the license will restrict further publication whereas GPL demands futher publication where certain conditions are met.

By SCOs law (coleslaw?), the publisher of a free newspaper has no interest in the copy that is used to make up the newspaper, despite those contents being the means by which the publisher makes money. This is blatently incorrect

I'd be the first to admit the analogy is not exact but we must realise that there is over 270 years of copyright case law (The Hogarth Act was passed in 1732 and is generally taken as the first example of modern copyright law) and there will be little in the RedHat-SCO case that has not been examined in other cases.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Trolltech comments
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 04:41 PM EDT
Interesting Trolltech comments, one for the database?

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12196

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sucide by Judge
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 04:50 PM EDT
The first time I heard that phrase.

What a perfect epitaph for SCO!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Red Hat Proprietary Kernels
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 04:53 PM EDT
I wanted to make one point to clarify things a little. A number of free software projects don't distribute binaries at all. The kernel.org is no exception.

Red Hat obtains and distributes the "pristine" or "vanilla" sources together with the patches they gather from other authors like their own Alan Cox. These are not part of the official kernel sources. You can find many examples at:

kernel.org/people

When an ordinary user installs any version of Red Hat Linux, they are always installing a binary compiled with these "collections" of additional Red Hat modifications to the official kernel sources. On top of that there are usually a few different versions that are compiled with either Intel, Athlon, etc. architechture dependent optimizations that Red Hat has chosen for you.

All of that just to say: It isn't just the "Enterprise" versions that use a Red Hat proprietary kernel, they all do. Red Hat owns the copyright on the collection, since it always varies in at least some minor ways (e.g. extraversion) from the official one at kernel.org.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 05:05 PM EDT
I just wonder:
If wat they claim about linux is true, it would also
a big argument for SCO in this case, isn't it? I just wonder why don't they
use it? They even not bother much to prove that
their action is justifyied. If they had a good case why don't they do that?

Just my 2c

[ Reply to This | # ]

Is this true?
Authored by: skidrash on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 05:14 PM EDT
SCO statements made after RH filed suit cannot be used in the current case?

If SCO starts explicitly saying they will sue RH and RH customers at their
leisure RH cannot use that in the current case?

If that's the case why has SCO not started REALLY threatening, openly and with
great hostility and prejudice?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Disappears in a puff of logic...
Authored by: reuben on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 05:22 PM EDT
From page 12 of SCO's reply, after an impressive line of reasoning:

<blockquote>
Red Hat, accordingly, makes money by providing professional services.
Complaint, Par. 29; see also GPL (allows charging for services only). It
does not make money by selling the Linux kernel.
</blockquote>

This bit reminds me very strongly of Monty Python's Sir Bedevere: "And
that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." The
impressive line of reasoning leads to a conclusion that is blatantly false.

Would Mr. Heise et al. also argue that it's impossible to make money by
selling the King James Bible or the complete works of Shakespeare? It
doesn't seem like the conclusion follows from the arguments (which are
also wrong).

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT - 2.5 vs 2.6 kernels clarification
Authored by: Ed L. on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 05:58 PM EDT
"Something else strikes my eye. They repeatedly state that the argument is
over the 2.4 and 2.5 kernels. But in the teleconference they claimed that their
IP is in the 2.6 kernel too, so the IBM case isn't going to settle all the
issues, because it isn't even discussing the 2.6 kernel."

Actually, from a technical (and I hope legal) view there is no distiction
between the 2.5 and 2.6 series kernels. Linus uses odd major suffix (2.1, 2.3,
2.5, etc) to denote "development" releases, and even numbers (2.0,
2.2, 2.4, 2.6) to denote "stable" or "production"
releases. Hence when he felt the 2.5 series was "done enough", he
more or less "froze" (in the same sense that slush is frozen) 2.5
series development and put out the result as 2.6.0test1, which someone else
might have termed 2.6.0 Beta 1, the idea being the same. He is now at
2.6.0test9, and when the testxxx's are "debugged enough", he will
release the result as 2.6.0 GA (general availability). It is *highly* unlikely
that RedHat will attempt to weasel a legal distinction amoungst series numbers
where there is no technical difference. That sort of thing is just not what
Szulik & Co. are about.

Not much of a nit, that. Like the rest of you, I'm just more & more amazed
at PJ's product. It was good to begin with, when I first stumbled on this site
late last spring, but now there's just so much more of it, and the quality, if
anything even improves -- though I'm admittedly a bit confused as to how
that's possible. Thanks, both to PJ and to you lumbering giants out there
across whose shoulders she so cheerfully treds!!!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Has Heise shot himself in the foot?
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 06:51 PM EDT
By offering to testify, do Heise's interviews become fair game for RH?

Can RH now enter into evidence the "copyright law trumps GPL"
argument, and point out that this completely invalidates SCO's "GPL
destroys economic value"?

(if copyright destroys GPL then obviously GPL is invalid and is capable of
destroying nothing).

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 08:24 PM EDT
IANAL, but Analogy:

It occurs to me that if somebody was to say some chain of video rental stores is
distributing pirated movies, and if that somebody went round saying that
customers of the video stores might be liable and be sued, or perhaps but
perhaps not they might sue the chain too.

The fact that the video chain has no copyright interest in the movies (which is
even more extreme than the case of Red Hat in Red Hat Linux - Red Hat certainly
has some copyrights in Red Hat linux), is not going to prevent the chain from
taking some action against that somebody.


Changing subject. The fact that SCO says they are misquoted, at best means the
judge will read the entire original documents carefully. If the judge reads the
mozillaquest article, I think the meaning is clear.

[ Reply to This | # ]

What will the next silly argument be?
Authored by: Khym Chanur on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 09:02 PM EDT
Maybe SCO will argue that the GPL is a monopoly, and then bring an anti-trust
suit against the FSF. Or, since people from all around the world contribute to
the Linux kernel, they could try to drag international trade law into the mess.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 09:24 PM EDT
Attention all

This is kind of old, lots of Heise quotes here

http://www.linuxworld.com/story/20961.htm

SCO lawyer Mark Heise of Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP says IBM's defense
is so thin and "boilerplate" that he's "still waiting for
them to file it." He calls the preamble a "press release."

...

SCO lawyer Mark Heise of Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP says IBM's defense
is so thin and "boilerplate" that he's "still waiting for
them to file it." He calls the preamble a "press release."

At the end of the vague 16-page filing, IBM not unexpectedly contends that
SCO's suit "fails to state a claim upon which relief can be
granted," since SCO's suit, filed by its equally famous lawyer David
Boies, a former Cravath, Swaine partner, was - as even its own lawyer has
admitted - a tapestry of conclusions, not facts.

Heise says that IBM could have asked the court for more detail, but chose not
to, contending that the substance-less nature of IBM's reply was less a matter
of IBM's unwillingness to show its hand than it was a matter of having nothing
in it.

"I'm ready to throw my 25-30 pages of details on the table," Heise
claimed. He has previously said the SCO suit lacked facts on purpose to play cat
and mouse with IBM.


P.S.

Where is the 25-30 pages of details?? Has it shown up in discovery???

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO style of argument
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 10:04 PM EDT
Attention all, I think is an interesting point

McBride, Heise and Boies all have a tendency to reverse any argument that is
used at them, sometimes with the exact same words.

It's been remarked upon on GROKLAW before, but a few that come to mind (if you
have more post 'em)

1. Computerworld write's an article about SCO's "shell game".
McBride soon after talks about Red Hat playing a "shell game" with
liability.

2. SCO is accused of playing to the gallery etc. Mark Heise (see previous link)
says no that's IBM, and argues that the start of their response is basically a
press release

3. One of SCO's court filing talks about all the fanfare Red Hat's suit
against SCO attracted in the intro

4. IBM in the letter exhibits related to discovery, says "Are you really
providing us everything we asked for? Are you really not holding back because of
your objections?". Boies shoots back "Yes we are. Are you providing
us with everything? Are you not holding back because of your objections?"


In the last case, IBM used the SCO style of argument to get a statement that
they used in their motion to compel discovery.

Take note.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 10:16 PM EDT
Doesn't SCO still owe Canopy a couple million dollars (their UNIX rights are
the security deposit for that loan). I bet they will use the $50m to pay Canopy
back. Canopy is really ingenius. They turned in 6 month a broke company worth a
few pennies into a multi-million dollar profit. What do you want to bet that
McBride will be the one still standing when the music stops. By that time Canopy
is already in a safe distance and nobody will be able to collect damages from
SCO. And the UNIX rights go to BayStar for another round of litigation.

[ Reply to This | # ]

MozQuest Article
Authored by: stevem on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:00 PM EDT
New MozillaQuest Article up. Haven't seen much from Mike Angelo for a while
unf.

http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux03/ScoSource-28-SCO-Mtn-Dismiss-RedHat_Story01.
html

- stevem

[ Reply to This | # ]

blatant lies
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:19 PM EDT

How can they so blatantly lie?

SCO Brief, page 10: SCO had not contacted Red Hat before this case, much less threatened litigation.

CRN Interview:

CRN: Have you talked to Red Hat?

McBride: Yes. We approached Red Hat [about licensing source code libraries] and they thought [our claim] was interesting. They said they'd talk about it, but then called back and said we'll pass [on licensing the source code from SCO].

[ Reply to This | # ]

What is 'Free', your definitions
Authored by: Scott_Lazar on Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:27 PM EDT
Since coming to the GROKLAW site(s) a few months ago, one of the things I've
seen bandied about in MANY discussions, and in many variations are the terms
'Free' and 'Freedom' in regard to GNU/Linux. We (collectively) and PJ in
the particular singular, have done what I can only describe as a superlative job
of countering SCO's self-serving web of falsehoods, half-truths, deceptions,
and grandiose statements through the use of TRUTH, HONESTY, and FACT in regards
SCO’s allegations of there being inappropriately contributed code in GNU/Linux.


In reading SCO's latest response to Red Hat, it reminded me that one of the
things that has been troubling me is that we (again collectively) have allowed
SCO and Microsoft to define exactly what 'Free' and 'Freedom' MEAN. We
(collectively) tend to refer to 'free' and 'freedom' with analogies such as
'free as in free beer' or 'freely distribute', while SCO and Microsoft tend
to refer to 'free' as being analogous to public domain, or free as in no cost,
and therefore incapable of generating revenue, or free as in there being no
support. In their latest response, SCO (paraphrasing here) basically has
complained that Linux is destroying economic value of proprietary software.
They are mixing definitions of 'free' so as to make it appear that IBM and SGI
have 'given' away SCO's property, painting themselves as being the victim of
torturous interference.

I think we collectively need to define just WHAT and HOW 'Free' and
'Freedom' relate to GNU/Linux.

Here are my personal suggestions (I might be wrong about any and/or ALL of
these, and please feel free to correct and/or add to this list, but these are my
interpretations):

WHAT ‘FREE’ AND ‘FREEDOM’ ARE TO GNU/LINUX:

GNU/Linux is freely available from those distributors who choose to release a
version 'Free of Charge'.

GNU/Linux is freely modifiable provided modifications you make are also made
freely available to others.

GNU/Linux is 'Free' in that the collective work defined as 'Linux' (complete
core operating system and user components) are visible at the source code level
for all to see.

GNU/Linux is 'Free' in that the collective history of modifications, changes,
and new components is freely visible for all to see.

GNU/Linux distributors are 'Free' to charge those parties interested in
purchasing such the software and/or support for said software, within the
confines of the GPL.

GNU/Linux is 'Free' in that no one company can market, enforce/require
modifications, upgrades and distribution for their sole benefit. I.E. no one
company can ‘proprietize’ Linux.

Again, your thoughts, opinions, and corrections are appreciated. It’s time that
we stop letting those who don’t understand GNU/Linux and to a greater extent the
real spirit behind the GPL from defining WHAT it means.


Scott

---
LINUX - Visibly superior!

[ Reply to This | # ]

More quotes from your database - Some funny
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 12:19 AM EDT
Follow links for full quotes, fav snippets selected

http://www.linuxpr.com/releases/249.html

``We target the `Linux for Business' market,'' said Ransom Love, President
and CEO of Caldera Systems, Inc. ``Overwhelmingly, the Fortune 1000 are
clamoring for more Linux applications--and not just any applications--they want
Applixware. We find that combining our VAR channel with Applixware is not just a
`win-win,' but a `win-win-win' for the channel, the enterprise and our
companies.''

~~

About XFS

http://www.linuxpr.com/releases/13.html

"This is terrific news and we're happy to have SGI as part of the open
source family," said Ransom Love, president and CEO of Caldera Systems,
Inc. "There's a great need in Linux for business to have that
enterprise-class file technology and storage capability. Daily, we have
enterprise customers asking for these solutions - particularly where graphics
are concerned. With SGI's contribution and expertise in journaling, throughput
and data integrity, we can meet the file sharing/storage needs of those
customers with the best technology available. That SGI would make this
contribution to the open source community says a lot about their vision and
business acumen."

~~

http://www.linuxpr.com/releases/702.html (not really a quote, buy hey)

The Linux Professional Institute (LPI) announced today that SGI has become the
fifth Platinum sponsor of LPI, joining Caldera Systems, IBM, Linuxcare and SuSE
in providing the major funding to the nonprofit certification project.

~~

http://www.linuxpr.com/releases/682.html

~~
http://www.linuxpr.com/releases/443.html

"Fujitsu is one of the industry's premier providers of enterprise
information technology solutions worldwide," said Ransom Love, president
and CEO of Caldera Systems, Inc. "Their promotion and distribution of
OpenLinux and Caldera's leading Linux education courses and service options,
demonstrates their continued leadership in the Internet server and appliance
markets. Fujitsu is a leader in providing total business solutions-not only to
Japan-but the world."
~~

http://www.linuxpr.com/releases/865.html

~~

http://www.linuxpr.com/releases/907.html

"As a major force in the retail channel, CompUSA has helped get OpenLinux
to the consumer and now, through their in-store learning centers, they'll help
us train the growing community of Linux users," said Royce Bybee, vice
president of sales for Caldera Systems. "CompUSA's reputation will allow
us to reach our objective of broadening the availability of Linux
training."

...

"We want Linux users in these 14 markets to know that Caldera's
certification preparation courses are distribution neutral," said Jim
Higgins, product manager of education for Caldera Systems. "That means it
doesn't matter whether you use OpenLinux, TurboLinux, Red Hat, SuSe or other
distributions, we'll prepare you for Linux certification offered by the Linux
Professional Institute (LPI)."

~~
http://www.linuxpr.com/releases/978.html

Caldera Systems will use the capital provided by these investors to fund
operations and accelerate the growth and acceptance of Linux.

"We are encouraged by the support of these technology leaders, which we
take as an endorsement of the Linux industry as a whole and the Open Source
movement in particular, and we look forward to their strategic counsel,"
said Ransom Love, President and CEO of Caldera Systems, Inc.

...

"Sun's investment in Caldera is a testament to our support of Open
computing," said Jonathan Schwartz, vice president of Sun's Equity
Investment Portfolio.

"We're the leading provider of UNIX server systems and a longtime
supporter and supplier of Open Source technologies," said Mike Orr, senior
vice president of Marketing, SCO. "We look forward to furthering the
relationship with Caldera by working together on initiatives that bring Linux
and UNIX closer together."

[ Reply to This | # ]

New articles, new quotes
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 12:53 AM EDT
New articles, new quotes

Didio, Stowell, Perens, Skiba
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10162003/business/102197.asp

More McBride, licensing + Linux users,
http://www.cbronline.com/latestnews/15df6ff9b10a235a80256dc50018bde4

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 02:12 AM EDT

``...the GPL is designed to destroy the economic value of copyrights.''

The best quotation I could find that addresses this idea is from Wolfgang Pauli:

``This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.''

Mind boggling these SCO lawyers are.

[ Reply to This | # ]

OCR of filings & a link
Authored by: tleps on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 02:12 AM EDT
The first batch of court filings has been OCR'd. Need volonters to help proof
it. P.J. has a copy of the un-proofed text, hopefully a few of us can help get
her a copy of proofed one's. We've got 12 filings to proof - I'll tackle the
one I know OCR'd poorly - the other 11 should not be too dificult. e-mail me
& I'll send one your way.

Also saw this on the MSNBC page, of all places :)
"One state adopts open-source mantra"
http://www.msnbc.com/news/982392.asp?0cv=CB20
enjoy the read :)

Thomas

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: PJ on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 03:39 AM EDT
Hi all,

Your feedback was excellent. I incorporated corrections and additions,
as I was able. Thanks so much.

Are we having fun, or what?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Judges reading Groklaw?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 04:51 AM EDT
What are the chances and legality of the judges in the IBM and Red Hat cases
reading Groklaw? Is there a restriction on the kinds of research they're
allowed to perform before each case comes to court?

Also, why does SCO get 30 days before the judge rules on SCO's latest attempt
to throw out Red Hat's case? Can't the judge rule as soon as she comes to a
decision? It seems to me, from a European perspective, that both these cases
could have been decided weeks ago if the US courts were more proactive. All the
timing so far is being detemined by the lawyers.

Ken

[ Reply to This | # ]

a good outcome for MS, more ammo for Darl
Authored by: skidrash on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 05:27 AM EDT
MS is going to have a court document from a major Linux distributor saying
"Linux is not free".

Even if RH words their response carefully MS will quote out of context.

You can bet Darl will seize on that for his next PR push as well.

[ Reply to This | # ]

PJ's book
Authored by: skidrash on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 05:36 AM EDT
what section of the bookstore will it end up in?
Law?
Classics (tragedy)?
the Dilbert section?

between Classics and Dilbert (tragicomedy?)

With Ripley's?
Business (BAD BUSINESS, Ala Enron)?
Fiction? (who'd believe all this stuf??)

Beside Calvin & Hobbes (the whacky adventures of 50 year old CEO Darl and
his Imaginary IP friend?)

[ Reply to This | # ]

What licenses are
Authored by: amcguinn on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 06:22 AM EDT
SCO's attacks on the GPL seem to exhibit not so much a misunderstanding of the
GPL itself, but a misunderstanding of what a license is.

"License" is an old word meaning "Permission". A
license is a permission given by one party to another party to do certain
things.

That is why a License is not a contract. A license might be given as part of a
contract, but a contract is two-sided (party A will do X and party B will do Y),
while a license is one-sided (party A gives party B permission to do Z). The
permissions given by the GPL are limited, but it is still one-sided (party A
gives party B permission to do P and Q together, but not to just do P on its
own).

A Microsoft EULA, for instance, purports to be a contract (party A -- the
customer -- agrees not to do certain things, like reverse engineer, and party B
-- MS -- gives party A a license to use the software). It is an Agreement (a
contract) involving licensing, hence a Licensing Agreement. I say
"purports to be" as it is not clear it gives the customer anything
they don't already have, and it is not clear the customer has really agreed to
it by opening a box, but that's the theory.

The GPL could conceivably be used as part of a contract in a similar way -- I
agree to pay you $1000 next March, and you agree to give me a copy of your super
new copyright software with a license to distribute under the following terms:
(insert GPL). This is not the normal case, of course.

What SCO seem to have trouble with, in all their "GPL vs Copyright"
blitherings, is that the GPL is a license given by the copyright owner of the
licensed work. They seem to think of the GPL as a third party in the deal, who
"receives ownership", rather than as a permission given by one of
the parties. They seem to be claiming that giving someone permission to modify
and distribute a work under the GPL is equivalent to giving up ownership of the
copyright, because so few rights are reserved by the copyright holder. Hence
all the "no proprietary interest" rubbish.

An interesting difficulty they will have in making that claim is that almost the
only thing the GPL does not give the licensee permission to do is the thing that
they themselves have done -- attempt to charge license fees. Red Hat have
proprietary interest in the Linux kernel in that they have reserved the right,
under copyright law, to prevent SCO doing exactly what SCO has done. (There are
one or two other rights that copyright owners retain despite the GPL, such as
the right to distribute under other licenses, which also count as part of Red
Hat's "proprietary interest".)

My question is whether it is even remotely possible that a judge could fall into
the same confusion between (a) having code that you have copyright in but are
unable to sell because the other copyright holders don't give you permission
and (b) losing ownership of your own work?

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT - MS & SCO: you buy our license, we'll buy yours...
Authored by: belzecue on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 06:26 AM EDT
Probably just normal biz, but given the current climate you have to wonder!

Yahoo Biz article here

"Microsoft said in the joint report that it has "taken a number of significant steps to revise substantially" the Microsoft Communications Protocol Program, or MCPP, in response to feedback by the plaintiffs and potential licensees...

Microsoft said it "contacted each of more than 100 entities that had previously been approached about the original MCPP to describe the benefits of the revised MCPP."

"The company said that as a result of its efforts, four additional companies have executed MCPP licenses since the July 24 status conference: Cisco Systems Inc. (NasdaqNM:CSCO - News) , Tandberg Television Ltd., Laplink Software Inc. and SCO Group Inc. (NasdaqSC:SCOX - News; SCOX)."

[ Reply to This | # ]

What happens now?
Authored by: p0ssum on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 08:36 AM EDT
Will there be a hearing to determine if RedHat needs to answer the rebuttal?
Will RedHat simply start working on the reply? Come on you lawerly types, help
us geeks out, what happens now?

---
-
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you to their level and then beat you
with experience.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • What happens now? - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 10:41 AM EDT
Corporations are protected by the First Amendment?
Authored by: Draconis on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 09:06 AM EDT
Seriously, non-human entities are protected?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Boies comment July 2003
Authored by: minkwe on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 10:04 AM EDT
from database: Search for Boies
Can RedHat use this?
"It is not necessary to resolve the IBM case" to deal with other issues, Boies said. While the case works its way through the court system, Linux corporate users don't have the right to take advantage of SCO's IP in Linux, he said, adding, "If the conduct is improper, the conduct is improper."-- David Boies, 2003-07-21
"What started as a contract case, involving people we have business relationships with, has now broadened to a copyright case involving people we may not have relationships with," Boies said. "We do intend to pursue this, but we intend to pursue it carefully and judiciously."-- David Boies, 2003-07-21

[ Reply to This | # ]

Those 1,500 letters ...
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 10:15 AM EDT
Do we know for sure that SCO actually sent out 1,500 letters to corporate Linux
users? I certainly remember lots of comments on sites like LinuxToday.com from
people who wanted to receive one so they could take some legal action against
SCO, but I'm not convinced they actually sent any letters out at all - do we
have any evidence that they did?

I could very easily be wrong, but some of PJ's comments to this filing do
rather assume that they were sent out, and I wonder if that might not have been
another SCO tactic like the invoicing thing - talk about doing it, which makes
publicity to get the investors interested and puffs up the stock price, but
don't actually do it in case it causes legal problems.

[ Reply to This | # ]

More old quotes for your database
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 10:52 AM EDT
Go to originals for full quotes. I just picked out some favorite bits

Ransom Love vs RMS
http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/11850.html


Ransom Love's secret master plan for Linux and UNIX
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5406

So, Linux, UnixWare, Openserver, Monterey (or whatever they're calling it now)
&#8212; what is the secret master plan? I draw a chart &#8212; OSes down
the left, years across the top, fill in "Linux 2.4" in 2001 with a
question mark, and ask Ransom to fill in the rest. Arrows sprout from Linux and
spread like fungus tendrils into the "UnixWare" and
"Monterey" areas &#8212; that's the compatibility thing
&#8212; and a big arrow moves forward into the future along the
UnixWare/Linux dividing line. This represents the spawn of Linux and UnixWare,
an über-OS with a yet-to-be-determined licensing policy. Ransom says you'll be
able to see the source code, but parts will be open source, and parts will be
"viewable source" &#8212; you'll be able to read it, but not
modify and redistribute it.

...

"Our model is to innovate, give back, and innovate again," Ransom
says. So, if current industry trends are any guide, Caldera will be making a lot
more of UnixWare a lot more open than they're expecting

...

So, for all you UNIX goddesses and gurus out there, the big question has got to
be: What chunks of historic UNIX will Caldera release under an open-source
license? Love says that code is coming, but, "the specifics we don't know
yet."

...

One more question for Ransom is whether he got any software patents in the
acquisition. He doesn't know, and adds, "That wasn't our intent."
If it turns out Caldera now has some software patents, I asked if we could put
them under a free license, and Ransom doesn't see why not.


More RMS
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/business/0,39020645,2091004,00.htm


More Ransom Love
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/business/0,39020645,2089898,00.htm


Ransom Love on UnitedLinux
http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/02/06/24/1556244.shtml?tid%163


Ransom Love on Open Source and Unified Unix
http://insight.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020472,2093314,00.htm

You have been heavily criticised in the past for your comments on open source.
What is your position now?

Caldera is absolutely committed to open source, but you have to remember that
GNU is just one of many open source licences, so not everything we do will be
GNU - but a lot will. For ubiquitous open source source environments we will
continue to use GNU, but Volution's underlying licence, for instance, is Open
SLP.

We are going to continue publishing under open source, but many of our big
customers do not want to contribute their work back to the community - GNU
forces them to give it back - so in some cases we publish under other licences
such as BSD so customers don't have to give their proprietary work back to
their competitors. Linus [Torvalds] says it doesn't matter which licence you
use. We are just extending that philosophy to business computing.

What does the future hold for your unified Linux/Unix platform?

Linux is most widely deployed in embedded systems and low-end servers. Because
of the current economy, there is no funding for general Linux, so we will see
tremendous specialisation in these areas. With UnixWare we can now take Linux to
32-way systems, and while we are not going into the embedded space we will
concentrate on thin client implementations as well as those server
implementations.

With the technology we have we want to move into the high end, and the Unix
kernel is two to three times more scalable than the current Linux kernel. But
there are always trade-offs in putting everything into a single kernel, so what
we want is a single build environment so we have to create a single application
layer.

On IA32 you can run smaller applications on Open Linux, or bigger back-office
applications on OpenUnix, while on IA64 you have OpenLinux and IBM's AIX5L,
which shares 70 percent common code with UnixWare. When we talk about unifying
Unix and Linux the two have a huge amount in common. A lot of people are running
their businesses on Unix, while Linux has a tremendous population on Web servers
and other front end servers. So we are taking both and combining them into one
platform. The only area where Linux and Unix really compete right now is for the
developer mindshare, but in future Linux will provide a whole new applications
to Unix. What it comes down to is that we have the only platform for developers
that spans from thin client to the datacentre.


Doug Michels
http://insight.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020472,2093316,00.htm


==> GOOD ONE ==> Ransom Love praises use of GPL by Trolltech
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2623592,00.html

Ransom Love, President and CEO of Caldera: "We have always been impressed
by Trolltech's commitment to open source. This move will make it even more
desirable to choose Qt for open source projects."


Also
http://www.zdnetindia.com/techzone/trends/stories/30582.html


Also
http://www.zdnetindia.com/techzone/trends/stories/15604.html

[ Reply to This | # ]

Boies and other quotes (including Red Hat related) for database
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 11:51 AM EDT
Favorite bits picked out, go to links for full text and more quotes

~~~~~
Boies
http://www.forbes.com/home_europe/2003/05/28/cz_vm_0528sco.html

~~~~~

Trink, Perens, McBride, etc
http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,83314,00.html



~~~~~
http://www.forbes.com/2003/03/07/cx_ld_0307sco.html


McBride
http://www.forbes.com/2003/03/06/cs_qh_0306unix.html

"We have very strict confidentiality agreements with IBM about what they
can and can't do" with Unix developed using SCO intellectual property,
said Darl McBride, president and chief executive of SCO. Further proof of IBM's
intellectual property violations will come out in trial, he said.

He also said that a specific type of intellectual property cited in the suit,
the so-called "shared libraries" used in the operation of Unix, was
"one of seven or eight" different types of IP which SCO is
investigating for IP violations by Linux developers. He declined to comment on
whether SCO would pursue additional lawsuits against IBM or other Linux
companies.


~~~~~
http://www.forbes.com/2003/03/07/cx_ld_0307sco.html

"They knowingly and willfully engaged in a major campaign to [bolster]
Linux [by sharing secret technologies] and destroy Unix," said Darl
McBride, SCO chief executive, today. "This is a direct violation of their
Unix contract with SCO."

Asked if the company had physical evidence that its proprietary technologies had
been shared with the open source community, McBride begged off, saying evidence
would come out at trial.

...

McBride said SCO decided to file the complaint after negotiations with IBM broke
down. While IBM is one of several thousand Unix licensees--notables are Sun
Microsystems (nasdaq: SUNW - news - people ) and Hewlett-Packard (nyse: HPQ -
news - people )--McBride didn't seem to suggest that more lawsuits were in the
immediate offing.

"This case is about IBM, and they're not [living] up to their
contract," he said.

...

But McBride says the case is "not about the merits of open source versus
proprietary software. It's not about IBM's right to promote open source. This
case is about the right of SCO to not have its proprietary software
misappropriated and misused."

~~~~~~~~

http://www.vnunet.com/Analysis/1140828

Why specifically were you encouraged about IBM? What makes you feel perhaps you
have an even stronger case?
There is no credible defence to any of the arguments and claims we made. We
expect and feel we have strong evidence to support the claims we have made.

...

My understanding is that SuSE says it is protected from anything you are
claiming. Have you got a comment on this as you are part of the UnitedLinux
consortium?
I have reviewed the agreements we have with SuSE. I would not characterise them
in any form whatsoever as providing SuSE with any rights to our Unix
intellectual property. They are dead wrong on that issue.

What you are saying then is: if there is Unix code put into Linux by IBM, and
SuSE is using Linux, they would therefore be liable by default?
Yes.

Would that also be true of Red Hat?
The same issue in terms of inappropriate intellectual property in Linux being
distributed by any commercial distribution would provide them with the same
issue. So Red Hat, SuSE or any other commercial distribution would have equal
liability.

....

Finally. Somebody raised a possible problem that you yourselves distribute the
infringing code under the GPL licence. Do you see that as a problem from your
point of view?
No we do not, because you do not have an infringement issue when you are
providing customers with products that have your intellectual property in them.


OK, but Linux has a kernel which isn't yours. Are you saying that there are
changes to the kernel?
We have concerns and issues even with areas of the kernel.

So you are saying that you are happy distributing the kernel because the
offending code belongs to you anyway, as I understand it?
Yes.


***** NOTE: Go to the bottom of this page to get more Vnunet stories on SCO's
Linux fight *****


~~~~~~~
http://www.vnunet.com/News/1141817

"As we move into discovery, this will be very nice for us because now we
get to go in and talk to all their people, their customers. We get to really
shake things up and get in to find out what really is going on over
there," he said.

McBride claimed that SCO has the right to audit IBM's customers. "We have
other rights under the contract we are looking at. For example, we can audit IBM
customers. SCO has audit rights on its customers," he said.

"The reality is that we are going into discovery right now and that might
be the vehicle to be able to investigate what we need there anyway."

McBride indicated that SCO's case against IBM is very strong. "The people
that have looked at this, both our legal teams as well as independent people
coming from the outside, say: 'These contracts are bullet-proof. This is a very
strong contract right you have,'" he said.

***** NOTE: Go to the bottom of this page to get more Vnunet stories on SCO's
Linux fight *****

~~~~~~~~

Stowell on GPL etc
http://www.vnunet.com/News/1142798

[ Reply to This | # ]

Poor quoting or what SGI really about?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 12:02 PM EDT
http://www.technewsworld.com/perl/story/31892.html

Meanwhile, SCO has said it will suspend indefinitely its demand that Silicon
Graphics (NYSE: SGI) pays Unix royalties, and has also announced a $50m equity
investment from BayStar Capital Management.

[ Reply to This | # ]

How to Create Live Web Link in Groklaw
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 12:20 PM EDT
Here's how to make a live Web link in Groklaw.

First, at the bottom of the message window you're writing in, instead of
"Plain Old Text", click on the down arrow and choose "HTML
Formatted".

You can click on "Preview" to see if you've done it right, before
you "Submit Comment".

Your eventual message will show up as usual, but write your Web link as
follows:

<a href="www.groklaw.net">my fabulous link</a>

The part in double quotes is the actual link. "my fabulous link" is
what shows up in your message. You can simply repeat the URL where it says
"my fabulous link". But you need both parts for a successful link,
plus choosing "HTML formatted" under the message window.

"My fabulous link" shows up in green, and when you click on it, it
goes to www.groklaw.net, or wherever you want us to go.


[ Reply to This | # ]

MS EU filing
Authored by: tcranbrook on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 02:34 PM EDT
This may be somewhat OT for SCO,

But is there any way to get a hold of the Microsoft EU filing. They
appearantly have submitted it.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2001770343_webmicrosoft
20.html

We all have a pretty sure idea that MS is the man behind the curtain in the SCO
battle. The EU action is another part of the war.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • MS EU filing - Authored by: PJ on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 02:43 PM EDT
SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 02:49 PM EDT
From SCOX message board:

Docket 22: Letter, stipulation to extend time for dfts to respond to complaint; with proposed order

Docket 23: Letter to clerk form J. Moyer enclosing original signed declaration of Mark J. Heise to replace faxed copy 10/10/03

Docket 24: Notice of Atty substitution: Terminated attorney Raymond J. D. Camillo, J. Moyers and Richards, Layton, & Finger for SCO Group Inc., by Jack B. Blumenfeld

Docket 25: 10/17/03: Answer Brief Filed by Red Hat Inc [17-1] Motion for Enlargement of Time to Respond to Pltf's First Set of interrogatories and First Request for Production of Documents and Things - Reply Brief due 10/24/03

Copies of any of above can be had from Parcels Inc for a copying and delivery charge. They will fax or mail. 800-343-1742, reference Redhat vs SCO, cv 03-772, and whatever docket number(s) above you want.

---
Wat does it mean that they changes lawyers (docket 24)?

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: keanu on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 02:59 PM EDT
just found this wallpaper on kde-look.org :)

http://kde-look.org/content/pics/7468-1.png

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 03:43 PM EDT
SCO Preparing Legal Action Against Customer. It probably will be a customer that is an AIX and Linux user. I guess SCO is in a hurry to get it before the judge earlier then the Red Hat case.

Hans

[ Reply to This | # ]

TSG legal strategy?
Authored by: RoQ on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 03:55 PM EDT

PJ, as usual, your analysis is phenomenal.

It occurs to me (and I mean no disrespect to anyone religious beliefs, but this bears stating) that TSG has taken a page or two out of the Scientology legal playbook, where the legal system is used to harass and vex your opponent. The only problem is that TSG is playing this so terribly.

I can only hope that Judge Robinson reads GROKLAW. She would get such interesting research...

RoQ

[ Reply to This | # ]

Re-Posted by Request The GPL, Patents, and Everything
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 04:05 PM EDT
I wrote this as a reply to a question about patents, then got e-mailed by a friend to re-post it. My apologies if you've seen it already. There are some small changes, I had to do the markup again too.

There isn't a requirement for you to have ANY code in the Linux kernel in order to enforce a patent against it. Patents protect ideas, and allow the owner the right to forbid their use by anyone else. Even the Courts have taken notice that computer source code is simply a form of speech (Karn v USDOS, Bernstien v USDOJ, Junger V Daley). This is like giving someone the right to monopolize a conversation for 20 years, or forcing everyone to avoid certain subjects entirely "in the interest of promoting progress in the useful arts and the sciences".

The Court seems to realize that it's a bad idea to give that sort of power to a government official, but haven't yet followed that line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, i.e. It's a bad idea to let a government official grant that sort of power to ANYONE else. An example from Bernstien:

"The government defendants appeal the grant of summary judgment to the plaintiff, Professor Daniel J. Bernstein ("Bernstein"), enjoining the enforcement of certain Export Administration Regulations ("EAR") that limit Bernstein's ability to distribute encryption software. We find that the EAR regulations (1) operate as a prepublication licensing scheme that burdens scientific expression, (2) vest boundless discretion in government officials, and (3) lack adequate procedural safeguards. Consequently, we hold that the challenged regulations constitute a prior restraint on speech that offends the First Amendment. Although we employ a somewhat narrower rationale than did the district court, its judgment is accordingly affirmed."

There is no Nobel prize for Computing. The Association for Computing Machinery has the A.M. Turing Award which is the most prestigious technical award bestowed by "the first society in computing". Donald Knuth received the award in 1974. He fought against the notion of granting software patents, and plainly stated that his considerable work, and the entire computer revolution itself, would not have happened if software patents had existed when those things first became possible. His letter is here. It simply has to be read. He's right, Unix itself could never have been developed in todays "intellectual property" climate.

I always roll on the floor laughing when I read some SCO executive talking about how they "own" all of this valuable trade secret intellectual property, and how it must be protected from the "gift culture". I don't know what that has to do with Unix. Certainly nothing to do with this one:

"[W]e were asking the Labs to spend too much money on too few people with too vague a plan... The proposal was rejected, and rumor soon had it that W. O. Baker (then vice-president of Research) had reacted to it with the comment `Bell Laboratories just doesn't do business this way!'" Dennis Ritchie

"What we wanted to preserve was not just a good environment in which to do programming, but a system around which a fellowship could form. We knew from experience that the essence of communal computing, as supplied by remote-access, time-shared machines, is not just to type programs into a terminal instead of a keypunch, but to encourage close communication." - Dennis M. Ritchie

"We always wanted to expand it and turn it back into communal things. We were always trying to get machines that we could take home, you know and share among wider groups of people. There's massive amounts of software that had to be developed, languages and all applications and all sorts of things. You just can't sit there with that Model 33, you know, wired right into a computer and do it all yourself. You can get your own work done, but you can really work faster if there's a community of ideas, a community of help. Application programs you can use and rely on." -Ken Thompson

..."Operating systems were dead. This was the whole.... There was a whole change in thought at this point that, operating system research was dead....When we persisted we were almost outlaws. We had to beg and borrow machines from weird places and weird sources." - Ken Thompson

People complain that Linux doesn't innovate things. This brings up the subject of borrowing ideas and concepts from other operating systems. Today SCO seems to feel that anything that touches their operating system is an unauthorized derivative when it shows up in someone else's. Unix would have never gotten off the drawing board if that were the case:

"The success of Unix lies not so much in new inventions but rather in the full exploitation of a carefully selected set of fertile ideas, and especially in showing that they can be keys to the implementation of a small yet powerful operating system.

The fork operation, essentially as we implemented it, was present in the GENIE time-sharing system. On a number of points we were influenced by Multics, which suggested the particular form of the I/O system calls, and both the name of the shell and its general functions. The notion that the shell should create a process for each command was also suggested to us by the early design of Multics, although in that system it was later dropped for efficiency reasons. A similar scheme is used by TENEX." 1974 CACM

"...and, uh, the things we stole: We stole a shell out of a MULTICS, the concept of a shell. We stole per process execution. You know create a process -execute the command. From a combination of the two, although, neither of them really did it, MULTICS wanted to do it. But, it was so expensive creating a process that it ended up creating a few processes and then using them and putting them back on the shelf, then picking them up and reinitializing them. So, they never really created a process for command because it was just too expensive." -Ken Thompson

"The most common model for the creation of new processes involves specifying a program for the process to execute; in Unix, a forked process continues to run the same program as its parent until it performs an explicit exec. The separation of the functions is certainly not unique to Unix, and in fact it was present in the Berkeley time-sharing system, which was well-known to Thompson. - Dennis Ritchie

"The very convenient notation for IO redirection, using the `>' and `Like much else in Unix, it was inspired by an idea from Multics. Multics has a rather general IO redirection mechanism embodying named IO streams that can be dynamically redirected to various devices, files, and even through special stream-processing modules. Even in the version of Multics we were familiar with a decade ago, there existed a command that switched subsequent output normally destined for the terminal to a file, and another command to reattach output to the terminal."

Well I could go on, but you either get the point by now or you never will...

Ken Thompson quotes are from here .

Dennis Ritchie's quotes are from his Bell Labs site, mostly from here.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Free copies of SCO Unixware
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 04:10 PM EDT
> that you have no ownership interest if you ever allow anyone to have a copy
for free?

SCO offered free copies of OpenServer and Unixware. All that was required was
to pay for the media and postage and a free single user licence would be given.
This wasn't a 'general' charge it was specified as being media and postage.

From Google:

"... SCO Unix and UnixWare sales, support. ... Free SCO OpenServer -
http://www.sco.com/products/freeunix/relnotes.htm
Release notes for the free version of SCO ... "

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 04:13 PM EDT
> I respectfully disagree. While a license seems one-sided,
> there is another side; in using GPL'd software, party B
> agrees to abide by the terms that party A set out for such
> use.

I respectfully disagree, and a reading of the GPL confirms
this (it's spelled out in big fat letters).

The GPL *is* one-sided: it grants you certain rights *PROVIDED YOU ABIDE BY
CERTAIN TERMS*. It does not force you to do anything -- you haven't signed
anything anyway, so how could it?

If you don't abide by its list of terms, you are
simply not allowed to redistribute the code (or a derived
work), that's all -- unless the original author has given you *another* license
that allows it (there *are* many dual-licensed bits of code around).

Note that you can still *use* it as much as you want to without having to abide
by all its terms -- you're simply not allowed to *redistribute* it.

Your choice does remain free, though. You can choose not to redistribute the
code, you can contact the original authors to negotiate another license than the
GPL [1], or you can abide by the terms of the GPL and redisitrbute it under the
GPL.

In that sense, it's not a contract, as it doesn't impose any restrictions on
your behaviour (other than that you must respect the law, i.e. the copyrights of
the original owner, but that's obviously something that you have to do
"per se",not because of anything that's written down in the GPL).

[1] (which would be rather hard for the Linux kernel, of course, given the
number of authors)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Its a contract folks.
Authored by: gumout on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 06:04 PM EDT
When trying to decide if the GPL is a contract begin by
looking forsome form of the word "accept".

From the GPL section 5:
---5. You are not required to accept this License, since you
have notsigned it. However, nothing else grants you
permission to modify ordistribute the Program or its
derivative works. These actions areprohibited by law if you
do not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or
distributing the Program (or any work based on theProgram),
you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so,
andall its terms and conditions for copying, distributing or
modifyingthe Program or works based on it.---

In order to "accept" something, "something" has to be
offered... right? So what does the GPL offer?
"... permission to modify or distribute the Program or its
derivative works". This folks plain and simple is what the
GPL offers.

How do you accept this offer presented by the GPL?
"... Therefore, by modifying or distributing the Program
(or any work basedon the Program), you indicate your
acceptance of this License to do so, and all its terms and
conditions for copying, distributing or modifying the
Program or works based on it."

Well who is the offerer?
From the GPL section 0:
---"This License applies to any program or other work which
contains a noticeplaced by the copyright holder saying it
may be distributed under the terms of this General Public
License."--- The offerer is a "copyright holder" who places
a copy of the GPL in his copyrighted work.

Who is the offeree?
From the GPL section 5:
---"... by modifying or distributing the Program (or any
work based onthe Program), you indicate your acceptance of
this License..."--- The offeree is anyone who modifys or
distributes the Program.

Are third parties involved?
From the GPL Preamble:
---"... if you distribute copies of such a program, whether
gratis or for afee, you must give the recipients all the
rights that you have."--- Presto! we have a declared a
perpetual GPL trust granting permission (not ownership). No
privity required!

So a "copyright holder" offers permission to modify and
distribute his Program and "anyone" accepts permission by
distributing the program. We have a unilateral offer by one
party and acceptance by a second party through an explicit
act. THIS IS A UNILATERAL CONTRACT.The "consideration" for
offer and acceptance is "permission" to modify or
distribute. THIS IS A LICENSE. All third parties have been
granted the same rights of permission (not ownership) if they comply with the
GPL's terms. THIS IS A PUBLIC TRUST

The GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE is a LICENSE CONTRACT PLACED IN
PUBLIC TRUST for anyone who complies with its terms.

For anyone who says "the GPL has never been explicitly
tested in court" that is their right. Maybe they should go
out and bet the family farm that the GPL is bad law. SCO
did.


---
Sir, ( a + bn )/n = x , hence God exists; reply!

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 07:44 PM EDT

Use Linux? You might be a terrorist

http://www.technewsworld.com/perl/story/31899.html

[ Reply to This | # ]

More quotes - SuSE and Red Hat
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 09:35 PM EDT
More quotes, inc. some SuSE and RedHat

http://www.linuxworld.com/story/20981.htm

http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,83886,00.html


http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39115261,00.htm

~~
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/business/0,39020645,2135448,00.htm

including:
Sontag and SuSE's liability
Sontag says in kernel and other areas of Linux
Sontag comments on IBM's contributions
Sontag and end users

~~
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/business/0,39020645,2134297,00.htm

including:
McBride on Red Hat and SuSE -

~~~
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/business/0,39020645,2132758,00.htm

Bench on acquisitions, etc. (near end)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Suggestions for database
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 09:58 PM EDT
I've playing round with it

Pretty cool

I searched for Red Hat quotes by SCO for example

- SCO press releases didn't show up

- Conference call transcripts also didn't show up

- I am sure we can get or find the text for most/all older conference calls

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 20 2003 @ 11:00 PM EDT
SCO and IP in SEC filings (annual reports)

It's all over their 10-K dated 27 Jan 2003, signed by Darl McBride

http://ir.sco.com/EdgarDetail.cfm?CompanyID=CALD&CIK=1102542&FID=1047469
-03-3091&SID=03-00

p3 (last 2 paragraphs)
p4 (top para)
p5 (2nd para)
p9 (last 2 paras)
p12 (in risk disclosures)
p50 (slightly different topic about eBiz)

Compare the previous annual report
http://ir.sco.com/EdgarDetail.cfm?CompanyID=CALD&CIK=1102542&FID=912057-
02-1965&SID=02-00

The background, section on intellectual property, and risk disclosure is
considerably different.

One interesting point is in 2003, at least to me, they don't seem to be as
worried about potentially infringing on others' IP.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • IP Switcheroo - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 06:19 AM EDT
    • IP Switcheroo - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 09:42 AM EDT
SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 12:20 AM EDT
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/33489.html

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103_2-5094162.html (SGI quotes here)



Changing topic, SCO seems to have updated their SCO source pages, my comments in
[]


http://www.sco.com/scosource/description.html
"Since the license pertains to SCO IP that the end user already received
in the unauthorized Linux distribution, the SCO license doesn&#8217;t
include a media kit. "


http://www.sco.com/scosource/linuxlicensefaq.html

5. Hasn't SCO already indicated that it's okay for its code to be distributed
by distributing this code itself that is now in question? Haven't they
essentially GPL'd their code?

During the period that SCO distributed Linux, SCO was unaware of the copyright
violations. Copyrights cannot be given up by unintentional or illegal inclusion
in a GPL product. The owner of the copyrights must transfer the copyrights in
writing, which SCO has never done.

Section 0. of the GPL states the following:

0. This License applies to any program or other work which contains a notice
placed by the copyright holder saying it may be distributed under the terms of
this General Public License.

SCO has obviously never placed a notice indicating that our UNIX source code can
be distributed under the terms of the GPL license. Distributing the code is very
different from contributing the code. SCO has never accidentally contributed the
code.


11. Why is SCO willing to use litigation with customers?

[Mmm, are they threatening Red Hat customers]


13. Will SCO sue me as an end user customer if I don't buy a license?

[Mmm, are they threatening Red Hat customers]


14. How can SCO expect me to purchase a license when its case with IBM hasn't
been resolved yet? What if SCO loses its case against IBM? Will it reimburse
Linux customers who purchased a SCO IP License for Linux?

[Mmm, are they threatening Red Hat customers]


22. Do I need a SCO IP license if I am running Linux on non-Intel/Intel
compatible hardware? (i.e. RISC)?

[Mmm, are they threatening all Linux users, by definition inc. Red Hat
customers]


26. Why doesn't SCO offer an IP License for Linux to the Linux distribution
companies so that they can bundle SCO IP with their Linux distribution?

[Compare answer to 12. Doesn't the SCO IP License for Linux violate the terms
of the GPL?]


[Answers to 9, 42 to 47, also relevant to Red Hat]

[ Reply to This | # ]

Attention PJ - SCO planned something months before january
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 02:11 AM EDT
Attention PJ

It's been much discussed when SCO set out on this course

Particularly in the light of McBride's comments that the stock sales were
planned before they contemplated litigation

Here is something:

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-981569.html

"We've been looking at this for months. Every time we turn over a stone,
there's something there," McBride said. "If you pull down (Mac) OS
X you'll see a lot of copyright postings that point back to Unix Systems
Laboratories, which is what we hold."

Now this was published on 22 January 2003

So if we assume that Darl meant what he is quoted as saying...
"Months" must mean he started on this at the latest on 22 November
2002

("Months" by definition means more than one month, if article was
published the same day the quote was made, subtract 2 months from date of
publication).

Of course, it could mean more than 2 months... so it could be even earlier than
22 November 2002.

---

And there's more, pushing the date back to October 2002, or "several
months" before January 14 which is when this article was published
(incidentally article says "Chris Sontag, hired in October [2002]")

http://news.com.com/2100-1001_3-980514.html?tag=rn

SCO Chief Executive Darl McBride created an organization last fall "to
formalize the licensing of our intellectual property," according to a
company presentation seen by News.com and according to sources close to SCO.

"SCO is concerned about violations of our software license copyrights. SCO
pays royalties on software, and we're asking companies/customers to do the
same," according to the October presentation.

"Our Unix IP is a significant asset. And for several months, we have been
holding internal discussions, exploring a wide range of possible strategies
concerning this asset," the company said in a statement Monday. SCO
hasn't decided how exactly to collect more Unix revenue, the company added.

http://news.com.com/2100-1001_3-980514.html?tag=rn

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Steve on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 02:12 AM EDT
Corporations can also be convicted of crimes. Of course, they cannot be
imprisoned for crime, but they have fines levied against them.

I suppose, too, that a sufficiently serious crime or series of crimes could
justify the court dissolving the corporation; in effect, giving it the death
penalty. (Arthur Andersen wasn't executed; the courts and SEC simply
forbade it from doing any meaningful business, so it committed suicide.)

Hmm. Maybe it's late and I need to go to bed before stretching the
metaphor any further.

[ Reply to This | # ]

missing from the database - Sontag on SCO's legal theory about revoking IBM's license
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 02:38 AM EDT
http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/os/story/0,2000048630,20272787,00.htm

Extensive Sontag quotes on why he believes SCO can revoke IBM's license (it
also gives an interesting insight into their legal argument), and how he
believes that IBM will be in contempt of court if they continue shipping Unix

An early Perens quote there too

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: ZeusLegion on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 03:02 AM EDT
SCO licenses MS protocols

I wonder why they didn't just trade protocols as part of their earlier deal with Microsoft. Maybe because it was a payoff and this is just a smoke & mirrors follow-up to make things look legit.

---
Z

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Form S-3
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 03:22 AM EDT
Red Hat also announced it was contributing $1 million to establish the Open Source Now fund to help pay the costs of Linux companies involved in legal action with us, and encouraged other participants in the Linux community to make contributions. If Red Hat is successful in its claim against us, our business and results of operations could be materially harmed. [emphasis added]

I may be mistaken but this is either a lie or SCO's completely misunderstood what the "OpenSource Now" fund is for. It is a general fund for protecting developers. No where did it specifically say against SCO.

To further protect the integrity of Open Source software and the Open Source community, Red Hat has established the Open Source Now Fund. The purpose of the fund will be to cover legal expenses associated with infringement claims brought against companies developing software under the GPL license and non-profit organizations supporting the efforts of companies developing software under a GPL license.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • SCO's Form S-3 - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 03:49 AM EDT
SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 04:33 AM EDT
I apologize. It was indeed an old article. I didn't read beyond the 20 and
didn't see the 8.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 05:04 AM EDT
So let me get this straight. In a motion, in a court of law for all the world
to see, SCO admits that it has not rights to any code in the Linux kernel?
Doesn't that kind of defeat thier whole stated plan? Did they really stat that
Red Hat and indeed nobody has any ownership of the Linux kernel due to the fact
that it can be downloaded for free? So if nobody has ownership than that
includes SCO. Can they really be that stupid, or more importatnly do they
really think the rest of the world is that stupid?

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: chrism on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 10:03 AM EDT
worldroyster:

I agree with the empasis on this particular point. This is one of SCO's and
MS's biggest lies by far.

The reason it is such a big lie is that it asserts that most programmer hours
are paid for through the sale of for-sale software like Word and Excel, when in
fact most programmer hours are paid for through the use-value of software
developed for in-house use.

Consider a bank, for example. A bank makes money by providing, among other
things, an account service to its customers. In order to process transactions
efficiently, banks use a lot of hardware and software, and they maintain a staff
of programmers in-house to maintain and add features to their software. The
bank doesn't try to sell the software to their users, they are selling the
service of check-processing, and the software they write helps them do that.

The misconception that most programmers work on programs like word or excel is
very widespread. Eric Raymond mentions in one of his essays how when he would
give a talk he would ask for a show of hands. Everyone who writes software for
sale raise their hands, and everyone who writes software for in-house use raise
their hands. The first showing would only have a few hands, and virtually every
other hand in the room would go up for the second showing, *and everyone in the
room was shocked to find that out*.

I agree with PJ's and everyone else's emphasis on this point. Most of MS's
and SCO's arguments don't get off the ground without help from this widespread
myth about what allows the average programmer to put bread on the table.

Chris Marshall

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 04:44 PM EDT
<humour>This is the 317th comment to this story. Sheesh, this is getting
to be as bad as Slashdot.</humour>

[ Reply to This | # ]

GPL CREATES economic value
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 22 2003 @ 05:11 AM EDT
REPOSTED
I just wanted to make sure people see this who may not check under that thread
again.

Amazingly misleading quotes from GPL.

worldyroyster quotes
>>>
(...) You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, and you
may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange for a fee.
<<<

This is for licensees/distributors with no copyright interest, not the copyright
holders/licensors. Why are you using this as an argument that GPL prohibits
copyright holders from selling their work?


worldyroyster quotes
<<<
You may modify your copy (...) and copy and distribute such modifications or
work under the terms of Section 1 above. (...)
b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to
be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this
License.
<<<

worldyroyster writes
This couldn't be clearer in stating that nobody has the kind of ownership
rights to this software that enables them to sell it (the software licence must
be made available at no charge: how more explicit can this be?).

my reply
This is FOR DISTRIBUTORS/licensees.
This is FOR DISTRIBUTORS/licensees.
This is FOR DISTRIBUTORS/licensees.

I really do not understand how you can confuse the rights of licensors vs the
rights & responsibilities of licensees being spelled out.

You conveniently ignore this little bit, just a little further down -
<<<
If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can
be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this
License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them
as separate works.
>>>>

So if you introduce copyrighted materials you can sell those without the
restrictions of distributors who simply download and write to CD. and sell.

AGAIN, interesting that you misrepresent the restrictions placed by GPL on
licensees AND ignore rights explicitly given to copyright holders.

worldyroyster quotes
<<<<
b) Accompany it with a written offer (...) to give any third party, for a charge
no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under
the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above (...)
>>>>

worldyroyster writes >>> It's plain enough.<<<

Is it? I don't see any "as the original copyright holder you may not
chage for your work" Did I miss that?


worldyroyster writes
<<<
If you can show me the areas of the actual GPL text (or other evidence) that
contradicts what I'm saying here, I'd welcome it, because I can't see them.
>>>>

You've posted NOTHING that makes your case.

Your selective quotation and (perhaps innocent) misrepresentation does not
support your case. There's nothing in GPL to be quoted to set you right. GPL
does not prohibit copyright holders selling their work.

Reading between the lines of what you wrote,
It's very interesting, the things you write. You equate "economic
value" with $$$$$$$$$$.

You assume just because nobody is charging $$$$$$ for Linux kernels then the
Linux, they're barred from charging.

In fact the payment extracted by GPL is much better than $$$$ in the world of
code. The payment is due in code that must be contributed back (with
appropriate nuances of distribution).

In this way GPL generates far more economic value than any alleged destruction.



Did you graduate Chicago, btw? Are you a Randian?

Quotes from other worldyoyster posts
<<<
AFAI can tell, you have leave to sell media containing copies of code or
binaries, or charge handling fees.
>>>>

IF YOU'RE a DISTRIBUTOR. copyright holders have different rights.
I really do not know how you've missed this distinction.


Quotes from other worldyoyster posts
>>
Essentially, my point is this:
The main point of the GPL is to take intrinsic economic value out of the
software copyright. Individual copyright
<<<<<

The main point of GPL is for everybody who uses a program to be able to improve
and fix it.

The main point of GPL is to avoid the tragedy of the commons, and in fact to set
up a situation where incentives are put in place for people to improve commons.

AND

GPL does NOT "destroy economic value." By giving people easier /
cheaper access to technology it CREATES economic value.

The web page that gets put up because the Linux sertup is cheap, and somebody
gets use out of the information CREATES VALUE that would not exist otherwise.

Anyway,
Sounds like we're repeating this often on Groklaw, but your reading of
"the main purpose of the GPL" is so bad it's not even wrong.

[ Reply to This | # ]

GPL CREATES economic value
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 22 2003 @ 07:31 AM EDT
Apologies for the combative tone above.

the misrepresentation of pieces of GPL that (do not support)/minimally support
the position and the elision of other pieces that destroy the position made me
think the poster was not simply misunderstanding but actively lying.

I should have granted the benefit of the doubt.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Asks the Red Hat Judge Not to Give Them Their Day in Court
Authored by: chrism on Wednesday, October 22 2003 @ 01:06 PM EDT
Now, can you tell me what is the economic value (and yes, I mean in $$$, because that happens to be what we're talking about here) of **the copyright** to material that is already out there in the hands of countless parties who are free to distribute it freely, and are under the obligation of providing all the source material when they do so at no charge? For example, I'd say that if RedHat offered me to buy **the copyright** to all of Enterprise Linux that is currently under the GPL, I don't think that I'd get into debt to make sure I snatch it up from the throngs of potential buyers. On the other hand, if Microsoft offered me to buy the rights to MSOffice for a few million dollars, I'm sure my bank would go along.
I am not so sure your example holds up. I don't know what all is on Enterprise Linux, so let me give you a clearer example. MySQLAB is the company that makes MySQL. They own the copyright, and they license their stuff under the GPL and they will also sell you a license for a fee. Why buy the license for a fee you ask? Because the commercial license you get for that fee lets you take their code, make a derivative work from it, and turn around and sell the derivative work under your own propreitary license, not bound by the GPL. That is, in fact, how MySQLAB makes money to fund their development.

Why do they bother offering a GPL'd version of it, you ask? Because it gets them free debugging (which is a very big deal in software), and it also gets them a large user community that knows how to use their stuff, which makes it easier for other companies to make derivative works they might want to sell (which would require them to buy a license from MySQLAB). The other companies won't have any problem finding developers who know the internals of MySQL, for example.

I have also noticed that MySQL is one of the easiest databases to integrate to other packages, like R and java. I know because I use R and MySQL together all the time.

Returning to your Red-Hat example, if their Enterprise edition contained some non-trivial programs Red-Hat wrote and GPL'd, then offered a commercial license for, and those programs were useful to other companies that wanted to make for-sale applications, then Red-Hat would stand to make money from that as the copyright holder.

[ Reply to This | # ]

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